Replacement Front Brake Rotors
06-20-2003, 07:09 PM
#16
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Kansas City suburb of
Posts: 2,734
All I know is I have killed several sets of "solid" rotors, I am gonna give these a day in court and see what they do.
I still don,t know why drag racers and autocrossers use crossdrilled and slotted rotors, they should all be using solid ones if your logic was correct.
Someone once said "the proof is in the puddin"
I am gonna go eat some puddin, I will let you know how it tastes.
I still don,t know why drag racers and autocrossers use crossdrilled and slotted rotors, they should all be using solid ones if your logic was correct.
Someone once said "the proof is in the puddin"
I am gonna go eat some puddin, I will let you know how it tastes.
06-20-2003, 07:28 PM
#17
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: looking for a flow bench so Brook and I can race
Posts: 3,505
Originally posted by sorryofficer
I hate to argue with you Trey, cause i know you know your $**T, but i saw something in your last statement that caught my eye. Just before locking up the tires is the limit of braking, and that does depend on the tires when your doing speeds below say 70km/hr, but have you ever tried to lock em up at speeds around 160km/hr. I've stomped on my brakes with everything i've got (i'm 6'2 200lbs) and i haven't been able to get the abs to kick in yet (thank god). I have been able to get it to go when i've been cruising around town though at sane speeds. All this was with the stock brakes, the same goes more or less with the new ones as well, cept they feel a lot stronger, maybe its the pads though. My point is, better brakes might not make much of a difference around town, but they will at higher speeds. The C5 has pretty good braking stock, it has the ability to kick in the abs right? Well, why does Lingenfelter upgrade the brakes(with slotted or cross drilled rotors) when he does his full car packages?
I hate to argue with you Trey, cause i know you know your $**T, but i saw something in your last statement that caught my eye. Just before locking up the tires is the limit of braking, and that does depend on the tires when your doing speeds below say 70km/hr, but have you ever tried to lock em up at speeds around 160km/hr. I've stomped on my brakes with everything i've got (i'm 6'2 200lbs) and i haven't been able to get the abs to kick in yet (thank god). I have been able to get it to go when i've been cruising around town though at sane speeds. All this was with the stock brakes, the same goes more or less with the new ones as well, cept they feel a lot stronger, maybe its the pads though. My point is, better brakes might not make much of a difference around town, but they will at higher speeds. The C5 has pretty good braking stock, it has the ability to kick in the abs right? Well, why does Lingenfelter upgrade the brakes(with slotted or cross drilled rotors) when he does his full car packages?
I was reffering to wet conditions. Perhaps i should have been more clear.
As far as this arguement goes- its been proven time and time again. Slots and holes dont stop faster now a days unless your running el-cheapo pads that emit gasses.
many use it for weight reduction. Most use it for appearance (hence lignenfelter)
I think porsche puts sodium compound in there.
06-20-2003, 07:32 PM
#18
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 908
Why not do yourself a favor and get the LS1 brakes? I got mine (rotors, calipers, knuckles, etc for the front) for $250 from speed automotive. Actually I got them for $200 since I got the M6 conversion kit at the same time (THANKS SCOTT!!!). That plus the cost of new pads and a front end alignment are about the best overall option, IMO. More disk area, bigger pads, and better calipers at a relatively cheap price are just the start. Go drive an LS1 style F-body at a dealer or something. Those brakes are WORLDS better than the LT1's brakes. And it won't cost you $700+ like wilwoods or others will. Just my $.02
06-20-2003, 08:00 PM
#19
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In a house by the bay
Posts: 2,985
I don't think slotting and drilling is there for weight reduction.... that'd be a real waste.
Alot of the big boys run slotted and cross-drilled rotors.... I'm mainly speaking on the part of c-drilled here, because those guys can afford to chunk their rotors after every event. So they worry most about braking performance and least about whether the rotor will be good for the next outing.
I don't have a problem with slotted rotors and that'd be my choice for a street car. Weight reduction, loss of mass, bah, the little slots we're talking about aint gonna mean crap where that's concerned. The scrubbing action with slots seems to be benificial according to the big brake guys, Caroll Smith included, so I'd just stick with those and leave the cross-drilled for the endurance guys.
Honestly, between one rotor compared to another, I think the biggest difference you'd notice (quality wise) is the vaning. I have some pics of a Cart rotor somewhere (I'll try to post it when I find it) but you'd see a major difference right there. And there's no doubt that more vane area would help in keeping a rotor cooler. The better rotors all seem to have this where as the cheaper ones do not.
Trey, being the brake guru should have been able to help you with this one.... anyways, follow this link.
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...otors_myth.htm
and read this too.....
http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq26.htm
Used this exact same method (Hawk blues) to cure a good friends car of braking judder. I now keep a set of these pads in my toolbox.
All of the StopTech website is good reading.....
-Mindgame
Alot of the big boys run slotted and cross-drilled rotors.... I'm mainly speaking on the part of c-drilled here, because those guys can afford to chunk their rotors after every event. So they worry most about braking performance and least about whether the rotor will be good for the next outing.
I don't have a problem with slotted rotors and that'd be my choice for a street car. Weight reduction, loss of mass, bah, the little slots we're talking about aint gonna mean crap where that's concerned. The scrubbing action with slots seems to be benificial according to the big brake guys, Caroll Smith included, so I'd just stick with those and leave the cross-drilled for the endurance guys.
Honestly, between one rotor compared to another, I think the biggest difference you'd notice (quality wise) is the vaning. I have some pics of a Cart rotor somewhere (I'll try to post it when I find it) but you'd see a major difference right there. And there's no doubt that more vane area would help in keeping a rotor cooler. The better rotors all seem to have this where as the cheaper ones do not.
Doesn,t matter at all that they stop better and dissipate heat better and don,t warp as easily.
Naaa...couldn,t be that.
There a big step up from the crappy stock ones that I went through 4 sets of
Naaa...couldn,t be that.
There a big step up from the crappy stock ones that I went through 4 sets of
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...otors_myth.htm
and read this too.....
http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq26.htm
Used this exact same method (Hawk blues) to cure a good friends car of braking judder. I now keep a set of these pads in my toolbox.
All of the StopTech website is good reading.....
-Mindgame
06-20-2003, 08:13 PM
#20
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: looking for a flow bench so Brook and I can race
Posts: 3,505
Good stuff MG-
I didn't know about the warping thing. I am going to go for a run and knock up the punching bag before it gets too dark, then i will read all those articles.
Here at work i was looking at some SRT-10 rotors and Ram 1500 sport rotors under the holomapper. It seems that the most thermoexpansion occurs at the outer edge. And its coning, not warping.
an exaderated side view of the rotor (cross section down the middle) would look like this
|\___|-------|___/|
. The perforamnce pads on the SRT-10 seem to be eating the rotors pretty badly. Then again, people have a tendancy to beat the **** out of it and claim they were doing high speed fade tests
none the less- the Ram 1500 after 20,5xx miles looked damn flat and even- and its trying to stop those 20'' big blingin wheels
fine print-
Srt-10 is the ram srt-10
and for those of you wondering, the propsed lightning will be faster. We did a hell of a job with Srt-10's brakes. 3 year program compressed into 9 months and we litteraly SMASHED dodges requirements for high speed fade resistance and max braking distance. the brakes kick *** but the rears are a bit sqeeky. The T-56 is fun and the sport seats make the car.
MG-
In that advance tec thread, sstroker ace or oldsstroker brought up wegiht reduction i beleive. I forgot the end conclusions. something bout bald people on motorcylces
And yeah, vents are biggest part of rotor cooling. We pay guys discusting amounts of money to develop the most optimal vents. Right now I think TRW has the parents on the best ones on the market.
I didn't know about the warping thing. I am going to go for a run and knock up the punching bag before it gets too dark, then i will read all those articles.
Here at work i was looking at some SRT-10 rotors and Ram 1500 sport rotors under the holomapper. It seems that the most thermoexpansion occurs at the outer edge. And its coning, not warping.
an exaderated side view of the rotor (cross section down the middle) would look like this
|\___|-------|___/|
. The perforamnce pads on the SRT-10 seem to be eating the rotors pretty badly. Then again, people have a tendancy to beat the **** out of it and claim they were doing high speed fade tests
none the less- the Ram 1500 after 20,5xx miles looked damn flat and even- and its trying to stop those 20'' big blingin wheels
fine print-
Srt-10 is the ram srt-10
and for those of you wondering, the propsed lightning will be faster. We did a hell of a job with Srt-10's brakes. 3 year program compressed into 9 months and we litteraly SMASHED dodges requirements for high speed fade resistance and max braking distance. the brakes kick *** but the rears are a bit sqeeky. The T-56 is fun and the sport seats make the car.
MG-
In that advance tec thread, sstroker ace or oldsstroker brought up wegiht reduction i beleive. I forgot the end conclusions. something bout bald people on motorcylces
And yeah, vents are biggest part of rotor cooling. We pay guys discusting amounts of money to develop the most optimal vents. Right now I think TRW has the parents on the best ones on the market.
Last edited by treyZ28; 06-20-2003 at 08:20 PM.
06-20-2003, 08:33 PM
#23
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: looking for a flow bench so Brook and I can race
Posts: 3,505
Originally posted by revtime
I,m still confused, but thats typical.
I will see how these new rotors do for me and then make my decision.
What about braided hoses replacing the rubber ones?
I,m still confused, but thats typical.
I will see how these new rotors do for me and then make my decision.
What about braided hoses replacing the rubber ones?
a worthy upgrade according to our benchparking deparment (guy that compares our crap to other peoples crap, costs to performance)
06-20-2003, 09:33 PM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Portage, IN
Posts: 95
Ah, the weekly brake system debate once again!
First of all, Trey knows what he's talking about, but a lot of people refuse to believe theory and engineering knowledge, so lets take another look from a different perspective:
Go look at some serious competiton vehicles that you could compare a 3500lb Camaro (or Firebird) to. Let's look at NASCAR Winston Cup cars, SCCA World Challenge and Trans-Am series cars.
Trans-Am cars are basically tube frame cars with carbon fiber replica bodies on them to look like camaros corvettes, mustangs etc. They weigh around 2700 lbs, run 310ci motors producing in the mid-600hp range and run on road courses that are murder on brakes. Winston Cup cars are 3500lb tube frame steel body cars that run on a variety of tracks from superspeedways to small bullring type ovals to road courses. Brakes on superspeedways are very lightly taxed but small ovals and road courses are once again murder on brakes. The SCCA World Challenge cars are a variety of makes and types, but are all derived from production vehicles. Corvette Z06's and Vipers are just a couple of examples.
On NOT ONE of these cars will you see drilled rotors.....does that tell you something? You will see on all of the Trans-Am cars, the Winston Cup cars when they run brake-intensive courses, and some of the World Challenge cars *slotted* rotors, and the comments about helping with pad gassing do apply here. No, these guys don't run crappy pads but they are getting the brakes damn hot. Watch a NASCAR race at a track like Bristol and you will see the rotors actually glow from the heat. Even the best pads money can buy are going to gas a bit under those conditions, therefore the slots do serve a purpose.
First of all, Trey knows what he's talking about, but a lot of people refuse to believe theory and engineering knowledge, so lets take another look from a different perspective:
Go look at some serious competiton vehicles that you could compare a 3500lb Camaro (or Firebird) to. Let's look at NASCAR Winston Cup cars, SCCA World Challenge and Trans-Am series cars.
Trans-Am cars are basically tube frame cars with carbon fiber replica bodies on them to look like camaros corvettes, mustangs etc. They weigh around 2700 lbs, run 310ci motors producing in the mid-600hp range and run on road courses that are murder on brakes. Winston Cup cars are 3500lb tube frame steel body cars that run on a variety of tracks from superspeedways to small bullring type ovals to road courses. Brakes on superspeedways are very lightly taxed but small ovals and road courses are once again murder on brakes. The SCCA World Challenge cars are a variety of makes and types, but are all derived from production vehicles. Corvette Z06's and Vipers are just a couple of examples.
On NOT ONE of these cars will you see drilled rotors.....does that tell you something? You will see on all of the Trans-Am cars, the Winston Cup cars when they run brake-intensive courses, and some of the World Challenge cars *slotted* rotors, and the comments about helping with pad gassing do apply here. No, these guys don't run crappy pads but they are getting the brakes damn hot. Watch a NASCAR race at a track like Bristol and you will see the rotors actually glow from the heat. Even the best pads money can buy are going to gas a bit under those conditions, therefore the slots do serve a purpose.
06-20-2003, 10:30 PM
#25
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: looking for a flow bench so Brook and I can race
Posts: 3,505
Originally posted by DWoodAudio
Even the best pads money can buy are going to gas a bit under those conditions, therefore the slots do serve a purpose.
Even the best pads money can buy are going to gas a bit under those conditions, therefore the slots do serve a purpose.
06-21-2003, 05:01 AM
#26
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Buffalo, New York
Posts: 10,745
Originally posted by revtime
I have seen this debated so much it makes my head hurt.
I have warped 4 sets of rotors (well 3, I am counting the ones that were on it when I bought the car, factory ones I am assuming which were warped) I mixed up different manufacturers but admit I have not tried them all. I am going with something kinda expensive and cross drilled and slotted to see if I can find something that will last. I have seen lots o race cars and such with these type rotors so there has to be something to it.
If you know of a brand of rotor that won,t warp in 15 to 25k please let me know. Something that does not cost Baer or Wilwood prices please.
I have seen this debated so much it makes my head hurt.
I have warped 4 sets of rotors (well 3, I am counting the ones that were on it when I bought the car, factory ones I am assuming which were warped) I mixed up different manufacturers but admit I have not tried them all. I am going with something kinda expensive and cross drilled and slotted to see if I can find something that will last. I have seen lots o race cars and such with these type rotors so there has to be something to it.
If you know of a brand of rotor that won,t warp in 15 to 25k please let me know. Something that does not cost Baer or Wilwood prices please.
Rich Krause
06-21-2003, 08:20 AM
#27
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In a house by the bay
Posts: 2,985
Originally posted by rskrause
Maybe Trey or someone else with a more technical knowledge of brakes will chime in, but if you are warping the rotors repeatedly it means they are badly overheating.
Maybe Trey or someone else with a more technical knowledge of brakes will chime in, but if you are warping the rotors repeatedly it means they are badly overheating.
Good reading for the whole family.... http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers...rotors_myth.htm
and some pics of a Cart rotor just for the hell of it....
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...77819457YlLUjv
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...77819504UsQpji
Of course these were lifted from a site a while back but I do not remember where.... so please, no offense if they were from yours.
-Mindgame
06-21-2003, 10:05 AM
#28
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Buffalo, New York
Posts: 10,745
Originally posted by Mindgame
Does it?
Good reading for the whole family.... http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers...rotors_myth.htm
and some pics of a Cart rotor just for the hell of it....
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...77819457YlLUjv
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...77819504UsQpji
Of course these were lifted from a site a while back but I do not remember where.... so please, no offense if they were from yours.
-Mindgame
Does it?
Good reading for the whole family.... http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers...rotors_myth.htm
and some pics of a Cart rotor just for the hell of it....
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...77819457YlLUjv
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...77819504UsQpji
Of course these were lifted from a site a while back but I do not remember where.... so please, no offense if they were from yours.
-Mindgame
Rich Krause
06-21-2003, 10:14 AM
#29
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In a house by the bay
Posts: 2,985
Gotcha Rich.
We'll agree that the problem is with the term "warped". I think that causes some confusion cause in the case I mentioned where we used the Hawk blue pads to clean the rotors, I checked the rotor runout as-mounted on the hub using a travel indicator, and spinning the rotor. Maybe a few thou of runout but not anything that would cause the vibration that my buddy was experiencing.
So my conclusion there was no "warpage", just lots of pad material that you couldn't even really see.
Yep, more cooling would help... mentioned the vaning differences in my first response. Routing some air vents would help too but using a good rotor in the first place (or combining these steps) would likely end the problems all together. Who knows.
-Mindgame
We'll agree that the problem is with the term "warped". I think that causes some confusion cause in the case I mentioned where we used the Hawk blue pads to clean the rotors, I checked the rotor runout as-mounted on the hub using a travel indicator, and spinning the rotor. Maybe a few thou of runout but not anything that would cause the vibration that my buddy was experiencing.
So my conclusion there was no "warpage", just lots of pad material that you couldn't even really see.
Yep, more cooling would help... mentioned the vaning differences in my first response. Routing some air vents would help too but using a good rotor in the first place (or combining these steps) would likely end the problems all together. Who knows.
-Mindgame
06-21-2003, 10:18 AM
#30
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: looking for a flow bench so Brook and I can race
Posts: 3,505
If you are warping rotors- there is a serious problem. I've seen high speed fade tests where there are a simulated 75 0-150-0 stops and the rotor was still fine.
Me thinks the braking surface or caliper has a problem...
Uneven or even incosistant braking can do that do you.
Driving habits have a lot to do with it as well. if you were just autocrossing and decide to drive through a puddle- well then.
Another common thing is to wash your wheels with a hose and get water directly onto the braking surface.
Our rotors are machines to a profile tolerance of +or- .01 mm on each surface.
if the outboard plate cups out and the inboard plate cups "in" at he same location, you can feel a good vibration.
If you ever look at a thermo analaslysis of a rotor after a few stops you will see a "star" for some reason. I havn't taken any heat transfer classes so i have no clue why, BUT the high regions of heat in the rotor are in a star formation. Making it easy to understand why a rotor car built and uneven surface with extreme heat changes.
Also, when i was doing rotor to caliper bridge stacks-
we have a 1.2 mm thermoexapansion tolerance
Moral of the story?
Rotors get hot can can easily deform.
On a side note, looking at my supervisors brake plate thickness vs cracking and deformation study-
the relationship is indisputable. Thicker, heavier rotors warp less and crack less. No if and or buts about it.
Sometimes i wish i could post the data up on the forum or at least some of the images
Me thinks the braking surface or caliper has a problem...
Uneven or even incosistant braking can do that do you.
Driving habits have a lot to do with it as well. if you were just autocrossing and decide to drive through a puddle- well then.
Another common thing is to wash your wheels with a hose and get water directly onto the braking surface.
Our rotors are machines to a profile tolerance of +or- .01 mm on each surface.
if the outboard plate cups out and the inboard plate cups "in" at he same location, you can feel a good vibration.
If you ever look at a thermo analaslysis of a rotor after a few stops you will see a "star" for some reason. I havn't taken any heat transfer classes so i have no clue why, BUT the high regions of heat in the rotor are in a star formation. Making it easy to understand why a rotor car built and uneven surface with extreme heat changes.
Also, when i was doing rotor to caliper bridge stacks-
we have a 1.2 mm thermoexapansion tolerance
Moral of the story?
Rotors get hot can can easily deform.
On a side note, looking at my supervisors brake plate thickness vs cracking and deformation study-
the relationship is indisputable. Thicker, heavier rotors warp less and crack less. No if and or buts about it.
Sometimes i wish i could post the data up on the forum or at least some of the images