Mindgame

Okay, explain what you mean by a profile clearance Trey. ±.01 mm is less than half a thousandth (.00039). Then you consider that a hair is almost 10 times thicker than that.
So, I'm curious about the clearance your talking about here.

edit: and what the hell is titatium

-Mindgame

bruecksteve

Trey, can I ask for a little advice? I'm running in a SCCA street prepared class and (I have 148,000 miles) one of these days soon, will need new rotors. I can update/backdate parts in my class (93 thru current f-body's), I can't go larger and it must be the same basic material and has to be a one piece rotor. When it comes time to buy new rotors, would you recommend going with the LS1 brakes or aftermarket?

jkipp84

bruecksteve,

Check with Sam Strano. He races SCCA with an f-body (and is very good!).

treyZ28

0.1* my mistake... I've made that typo 1000x now (once at work I made it 1.0 instead 0.1- that caused me some confusion when i found out wheel stud wasn't going to clear the wheel )

I REALLY need to start being more careful. Its going to cause me some problems when i start designing my own stuff down the road...

i *think* total profile of the braking surface is 7mm with a .13 profile but i really cant be 100% sure if thats the profile or demensional tolerance

I finished th stacks about 4 weeks ago so its kinda vauge. We are doing testing now. I've been in the machine shop cutting up rotor and hubs lately no real paper work...

i dont know where you titatium but it might be related to a metal called titatium which is very light and extremely strong and worth its valvetrain weight savings in gold



Depends on your budget really. LS1 - i've only gone for a ride in a car with them and they stop extremely well. C5 upgrade is probobly top end bang for your buck. The twin piston is really the BIG thing. more braking power distributed more evenly through a bigger pad. I'm sure some big baer calipers could help your cause as well but i realy think the C5 is suffienct.


Get the heaviest biggest rotors you can find.
I dont know if they make high carbon rotors for our cars, but if they do its a great upgrade.


Think of rotors as a heat sink. More mass = ability to "suck up" more heat= less fade which i'm sure is your enemy.

Also pads are VERY important. Different pads work bestunder different temperatures. I know guy who got the "race series" pads from some company for his street driven vehicle. Unfortualy they work best under extreme conditions and $12 napa pads would probobly fare him better.

A larger radius gives it more surface area. This is great for reducing heat fade agian.

Cooling is you God. Some air ducts to the inboard rotor brake plate will serve you well. The outboard has the rotor hat as a heat sink. the inboard has nada.

If your really crazy you can port and polish the vents I dont know if it will do any good at all but it would be kind cool. I know its a cast surface in there

Brake fluid-
Brake fluid will actually BOIL inside the caliper! I just foudn this out the other day. It can acutally vaporize in there!
get good brake fluid and change it frequently. Steel braided lines will help with pedal feel and maybe even cooling. I wonder how benificiary it would be to cool brake fluid
I'll hve to talk with the caliper engineers on monday.

Tires-
Stickier tires alow for more braking before lockup. if you have more tire to road traction, you can have more rotor to pad friction without locking it up. Thats why stopping in rain sucks. there is no friction between road and tire so its 10x easier to lock the wheel.

Lastly-
weight distribution and suspension. the more wieght is up front the more your front brakes are overwhelmed. The more your car nose dives the more weight is shot up front.


I think baer makes some rotors with aluminum hats that should disipate heat faster and reduce rotating mass quiet a bit. I dont know what vehicles they make them for if if they are legal in your class.

Mindgame

Trusting company you work for Trey..... they should have a little more consideration for the guys who have to work in the same vicinity.

No, I think titatium is an alloy of your fantasies. A little female anatomy here and some strong/lightweight stuff there.
It's called titanium Trey.

-Mindgame





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ZPaul2Fresh8

Thought I'd add my .02 since everyone else has.

1. Slotting wipes your brake pads free of water
2. Drilled provides cooler rotors which won't warp as fast as the OEs.
3. Buy the $30 ones and drill your own. Simple and don't worry about balancing issues, they are NONE! Just Follow a simple pattern. I have drilled my own front two rotors. Though I must warn you it IS tedious work(unless you have a drill press), but worth it. My rotors look better than retail rotors and cost me $38.

First the rotors have 41 support fins inside the rotor. All together including the backside I have drilled 100 holes per rotor. I used an electric drill (faster than air) and 2 Matco Drill bits (I'd recommend high quality bits so they won't break due to the heat) The sizes are 1/4" for the holes and 1/2" for chamfering.

Just mark where the fins are on the top side and with ruled flatedge start in at a 1/2" and drill, then move over 1 fin and move in 1/4" and drill etc... I put 5 holes in a row like this and then started back at the edge again with a 1/2" in like before.

But before you do any drilling, Map out your holes with a marker to make sure everything looks great, then use a punch to mark every hole, THEN drill!

I don't care what anyone says about balancing, as long as your holes are symmetrical you'll have no problems. Peace. e-mail me if you have any other questions.

Seal

A moving car has a certain amount of kinetic energy, and the brakes have to remove this energy from the car in order to stop it. How do the brakes do this? Each time you stop your car, your brakes convert the kinetic energy to heat generated by the friction between the pads and the disc.

so the more room you have for turning kinetic energy to heat, to more stop power you have...

go ahead and find a brake disc without the vents in the middle, and see how that works for you

if you drill yourself, you might get cracks around your brakes though, so be careful... the best drilled/slotted ones are the ones where they were casted like that...

treyZ28

blasphamy!
First off cross dilling DOES NOT provide for a cooler rotor. if anything it makes fora hotter rotor because there is less mass. that air in the holes is fairly stagnant- air doesn't like to make right hand turns and air really isn't flowing in there. its pretty worthless trust me.

2. slots wont "clean" the rotor of anything. water will just stay int he slots. on a wet road it doesn't even matter because

a. the rotor is so hot it will dry right off. Park your car after a drive and spray the rotor with water. see how much stays on there.

b. like i said before, unless your traveling at rediculious speeds, you can lock your brakes up so you are not power limited but traction limited.

3. drilling your own is a TERRIBLE idea. it is EXTEMELY more likely to crack. also, you will drill through the fins which are BY FAR the most important cooling factor on the rotor. No fins = .
Dilling through fins will cause one area of the rotor to uneffectivly cool (due to the fact that one fin cant act as a fan blade- it has a hole in it!) and thus heat spots... not a good thing.

And almost all rotors have a prime number of fins to reduce lines of symetry and therefore reduce harmonics and "sqeeking" So finding a way to drill a symertrical pattern without hiling the asyemtrical fins is your worst mathimatical nightmare.


You may not care about what I have to say about balacing but we spend millions doing at TRW for a reason. Especailly in passcar its extemely critical. Its one of the things that puts TRW above most other companys in rotors (aside from the fact that we patened the bet fin design )- we balance by removing weight and not adding. By removing, we can be exact.
we can remove 7.5 grams by other companys will just add a 10 gram mass or something. So we are more accurate


but hey, you're big blingin

ZPaul2Fresh8

Drilling does't not help desipate heat? Hmm... I guess Baer's rotors are false... Yep must be. Also The slots are to wipe water off the pads... What did you think they were there for? Blinging? don't think so...

Anyhow I don't care if you have a million posts, that doesn't mean you're right. In this case you should read up on why ROTORS ARE DRILLED AND SLOTTED.

DRILLED = Lets the gases vent from between the front and backside of the rotor.

SLOTTED = Wipes excess moisture from brake pads

Now it is true they aren't a big thing, but I'm just making my point here and really don't care because there is no difference in braking unless you're running 100+ with alot of braking, but on the other hand there IS less rotor for your brake pads to clamp to... so go figure... Or buy a $1200 Baer System

I'm not trying to flame anyone either, I like debates

treyZ28

Well, I too can enjoy a heated debate (pun intended ).

Think of slots as a less effective and stronger cross drilling. The aren’t there to “wipe” anything. Sand and mud will get caked in there and destroy your pads. Why would you want slots there for rain? As is the pad has a very tight clearance and not much will get between the pad and the rotor. Now with a wet condition, the pad compressed no water will get in there, it will slide in front of the pad. Now if a slot comes along it will “slide” in there and get under the pad and make it wet. How is this effectively wiping anything?

Also, the rotor is so damn hot most of any moisture will dry right off. Ever look at your rotors after a drive on a wet road? And I dnt know about you, but I can lock my brakes up from a 60mph “roll” in the rain no problem. So there is more than enough braking power.

And no- drilling will not dissipate heat. I think oldsstroker figured it out- you will lose about 1.5 lbs of mass by drilling holes. What does this mean? Less thermal mass capacity- or stuff to suck up heat.. More heat fade. Worse braking characteristics. And we aren’t even considering the fact that you are cutting through fins (more weight) and distorting and ruining air flow in the vents so hotspots and even worse cooling or the fact that there is less frictional area.

Baer’s rotors are slotted and cross-drilled and mainly for show and to sell. Plain and simple. There is a reason why hard-core racers don’t use slotted or cross drilled.

ZPaul2Fresh8

Oh I forgot to mention, I never drilled THROUGH any fins! Why would anyone do that? There are there for support!

Hardcore racers don't use cross/drilled rotors? Ha... Trey I thought you were smarter than that? SCAA....

Anyhow I like my rotors and have no complaints, braking is not better, nor worse, but for a fact they HAVE OUTLASTED my OE Rotors.

I'll say it again, Drilled rotors help desipate trapped gasses (heat) between the fins in the rotors. Don't make me find a link!

EDIT: OK I know when I'm wrong and I admit it, I must've been mislead someone where else, but Wilwood had the correct information. Sorry folks. I apologize Trey.

http://www.wilwood.com/faq.asp#question7

EDIT: But then again, check out what Baer had to say: http://www.baer.com/Support/FAQ.aspx#1 Ha Go figure

treyZ28

How the hell did you drill 100+ holes in a symmetrical pattern without hitting the fins? Like I said, there are a prime number of fins to reduce harmonics and sqeeking. So there aren’t any lines of symmetry.

Fins are not there for support. That’s the most retarted thing I’ve ever heard. I’ve yet to hear of a collapsed rotor. They are there for cooling and they are your number one cooling “tool.”

I know why the holes are there, they are to emit gasses. But not heat. There is a difference. A massive difference you don’t seem to comprehend or care to acknowledge. Unless you are running $7 Napa specials for brake pads, your pad is not emitting any gasses.

The heat you want to dissipate is on the rotor, and having less mass isn’t helping your cause. It would surprise me if it increased total surface area. But they certainly wont cool the rotor any faster.

I don’t care who are asking-
I work in the corporate head quarters of a $10 billion braking company. I have asked a hand full of rotor and brake systems engineers who are also SCCA racers. If you use cross-drilled rotors you are a tool. EVERYONE told me the same EXACT thing for the SAME EXACT reasons. It is their job to make vehicles stop as fast as possible. (And if you think we only do cheap brakes, I can grab a viper rotor and caliper off the shelf about 30ft from me.)

Brakes are funny like that, your intuition will tell you one thing but its wrong. And I dont care what anyone trying to sell you cross drilled rotors will tell you.

We had a sponsor of this site trying to push his rotors as a brake upgrade. I proved him wrong and funny, he agreed and i dont hink he advertises here any more. There is a guy in advanced tech claiming 40hp gains with his coatings till everyone told him to shut up and stop pushing his crap.

I'll tell you these pretzels i'm eatingwill make you live longer if yoy give me $5 a peice for them

joeSS97

I agrre with Trey on the cross drilling.Maybe it helps a little but they are going to crack.Slots are the way to go,nothing bling about em

bruecksteve

That's SCCA.

ZPaul2Fresh8

Ok, take away the fins and what do you have? Go ask your handful of SCCA guys that "design" and ask them. My point exactly, did you even check out the links I provided? They are corresponding to this thread, not your company Trey. Thank You.