TemplarKnight

I got a 2002 Camaro Z28 a year ago and have been thinking since day 1 about increasing horsepower and basically having it rival current generation vehicles(at least the stock ones). I think I've pretty much decided at some point(most likely after the car is fully paid off and I have more money coming in) that I want to throw a supercharger in it as sort of the final piece de resistance. Long before there, I want to get the rest of the car ready so when the day comes that I can afford it, I can add the supercharger with little fuss. Granted that is the current plan. In 3 years when the car is paid off, I might decide to sell it and buy a new 5th Gen Z28.

Some questions that are posed in this type of questioning, I am going to answer first and then I am open to suggestions.

"What do you want to do, improve handling or horsepower?"
First I want to improve handling. In my 2000 Impala, I had no problem whipping in and out of traffic lanes, but for some reason I just don't feel the same flighty feeling in my Camaro. It might be because of the rwd vs fwd or that I am just being more cautious because I am more worried of hurting this car, I don't know.
"How do you intend to use the car?"
I hold no real aspirations of drag racing, track racing, or using it in any real capacity outside of driving around public roads. Maybe some day I might take the car out to a track day at a race track nearby and just test the limits a bit, but for the most part it will be used to drive to class, dates, etc. This doesn't mean I don't want it to be high performance, but it does mean I don't want it to be strictly a track machine that will be uncomfortable or dangerous on public roads.

Basically the only things I've decided on are the tires (plan on getting Bridgestone Potenza RE960 AS Pole Position), and getting the SLP Cold-Air Induction Kit. I don't really want to change the hood and betray what's underneath, unless it simply becomes necessary to have things fit/function.

I looked over the SLP products and thought "I think I'll do the shock tower brace and the subframe connectors, and maybe do the shocks and springs later on to complete the pack" then I looked around here a bit and saw people talking about UMI, Stohn, and then got directed to Strano which has packs and everything and now I'm uncertain again(because I found a dozen or so other suspension pieces).

Also I keep seeing bolt-on and weld on, and past installation difficulty(I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be getting most if not all the parts professionally installed) is there a big difference in their performance ability? Weld on seems to be in most instances, but it sounds like the interior needs to be taken out to install(which would almost guarantee me going pro every time).

So yeah, at this point any suggestions are welcome. I probably won't start anything right away, will probably be another year before I start anything.

Current car info: So as far as I can tell the only thing changed on the camaro is it has a flowmaster 80 series muffler. So far I haven't heard any rattles or odd sounds that I've heard other people complain about and past the occasional slip on a rainy day, haven't had many traction issues(but plan to stomp that out with the new tires when my current ones go). The car also has 85,000 miles on it so far, had 79,000 or so on it when I got it and we bought warranty for it. Just in case any of this info helps.

JakeRobb

I have basically the exact same car, and very similar intentions for its future use. I like to go racing (I've done both drag and autocross and would like to try HPDE/RR -- all strictly for fun), but it's primarily a street car for my personal enjoyment.

I have UMI bolt-in 3-point subframe connectors, and an unknown-brand 2-point shock tower brace. I'm very happy with the added stiffness of the car, and I say go right ahead and do both of those things. The nice thing about bolt-ins is that you can weld them later if you decide you want to do that. Mine are just bolted in for now.

You should definitely get a Pro 5.0 shifter and a Lou's Short Stick. If you want to spend more money, you could consider other options, but the above combination is awesome and I see no reason to consider the more expensive options from Hurst or B&M.

Don't bother with the SLP CAI kit. Just get the airbox lid -- SLPs or anyone else's; they're all the same. Next time you need a new air filter, get a K&N.

My wife got me a set of stainless brake lines for Christmas that I need to find time to put on. A firmer pedal never hurt anyone.

Bigger wheels and tires are a must, IMO. Last year I picked up a set of 17x9 WS6 wheels w/ tires from a board member (GTOJack). IMO the WS6 wheel is the most badass wheel GM used on the 4th gen. I just need to replace the Pontiac-logo center caps with something more appropriate.

The next thing on my list is a shock+spring package. I'm thinking revalved Bilstein shocks and Eibach Pro-Kit springs. Other suspension items to consider are the various arms and bars -- A-arms, LCAs, panhard, torque arm, and swaybars. Each one you upgrade will increase stiffness and save some weight, but at the expense of harshness. Be careful here, especially with replacing the factory rubber bushings with urethane or rod-ends -- if you take it too far, you might not like driving the car anymore. I'd recommend doing these things one at a time.

Next comes building up the driveline. I locked up my T56 a couple years ago, so it's already been rebuilt with this in mind. Next on my list is a rear end -- I'm still torn between the slightly-lighter 12-bolt and the much-stronger Dana 60. Either way, I'll buy a bolt-in setup from either Strange or DTS. Some guys will tell you not to bother with this, but I like to build my cars right, and leaving the fragile 10-bolt in place when you have plans for big power on your street-driven car is a recipe for getting stranded somewhere. If you don't do a full rear end, at least do a reinforced cover.

When it comes time to do power mods, I'm going to start with longtube headers and a Y-pipe first, with a corresponding tune. Next comes a cam -- Kraest's amazing results with Futral's F14HL have me very interested in that. I'd do valvesprings, chromoly pushrods, and maybe rockers at the same time.

If, at that point, I'm still not satisfied with the power, it's time to consider more options. I already have a turbo car, and my father in law just put a Procharger D1 on his 1970 big block Buick (462ci), so I've been leaning towards a potent NA combo. For the cost of a good supercharger kit (about eight grand), I could build a 400+ci aluminum LS motor that makes similar power, without having to deal with all of the extra weight and complexity of forced induction -- no intercooler, no extra plumbing, no extra pulleys, no crowding of the engine bay, no boost-referenced fuel pressure system, no vacuum brake issues, etc. The end result would be an engine that looks basically like a stock LS1, so there's a nice "sleeper factor" in this approach. While the engine is out, I'd almost certainly put in a tubular K-member to shave some more weight off the front.

In exchange for all of the aforementioned complexity and weight, the forced induction route gives you more torque on the bottom end, and more potential for big power if you decide it's not enough.

TemplarKnight

Just out of curiosity, Any particular reason you advise against the CAI kit?

Oh, also I visited the ls1 tech and in the "so you wanna be fast" sticky they mentioned that the 12 bolt is good for automatics, not, as quoted "for the T56, breaker of rears" and to go with a 9 inch. No idea what 12 bolt or 9 inch means at all, but it's what I read.

JakeRobb

Look up the Free Ram Air mod. It, as you might guess, is free -- and it does the same thing!

I've not heard anyone say that the 12-bolt is no good for the T56, but of the three popular types of aftermarket rear end upgrades (12-bolt, Dana 60, 9 inch), it is the weakest. In general it's considered good to ~800hp, so I don't think you need to worry. LS1Tech's idea of "fast" is WAY faster than you're thinking of going.

12-bolt is a reference to the number of bolts that hold the cover on the rear end. It's not relevant to the strength, but it's a way to uniquely identify that rear end. The stock F-body rear has 10 bolts on the cover, and is therefore known as a 10-bolt. There's also a 14-bolt (incredibly strong, heavy as hell, used in HD trucks), but I've never heard of anyone using that in an F-body. The 12-bolt has been around for ages -- it came stock on a 1970 Chevelle SS.

The Dana 60's model number doesn't really tell you anything, but higher numbers mean bigger and stronger. Dana 44s and 60s are both popular with the 4x4 crowd. Dana rears were used by Mopar (Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth) in the 60s and 70s.

Ford actually refers to their rear ends by the diameter of the ring gear, which is actually the best indicator of how strong it is. In addition to the 9", the 8.8" is also pretty well known, and comes stock on late-model Mustangs -- even the 550hp supercharged GT500.

The GM 10-bolt has a 7.625" ring gear, and is known to break around 400-450rwhp. The 12-bolt has an 8.875" ring gear, and is known to break around 700-800rwhp. The 9" (obviously) has a 9" ring gear, and it's not uncommon to hear those handling well beyond 1000rwhp. The Dana 60 has a 9.75" ring gear, and I've heard of these going beyond 2000rwhp. Bigger isn't just stronger, though -- it's also heavier. The Dana 60 outweighs the 12-bolt by about 25 pounds similarly equipped. That's unsprung weight, which is generally the worst kind of weight to add to your car, but it's also very low and in the rear of the car, so not that bad in the grand scheme.

The other factor that plays in to rear end selection is gear ratio availability. If you want a 12-bolt, there are only about six gear ratios to pick from. With a 9", there are about forty. I've not yet looked into ratio availability with the Dana 60, but I expect it's not as good as the 9". For your purposes and plans, I'd suggest sticking with a gear ratio similar to your stock 3.42:1. If you decide not to do the supercharger, consider going up a step (3.73) or two (4.10). That ratio is the number of times the driveshaft has to turn to get one rotation at the wheels.

Cost-wise, the 9" is generally the cheapest of the three; the 12-bolt is the most expensive, but when you're talking about bolt-in-ready rears from reputable manufacturers, it's only $100-200 difference across all three, on a $2000-2500 purchase.

All told, I'm leaning towards the Dana 60, most likely from Strange (their product is known as the Strange S60). I'll offset the extra weight with some tubular LCAs and that sort of thing, and then I will never, ever worry about breaking the rear.

6SpdLT1Z

I don't like taking my car out on first dates, as I don't want to wonder if the girl is a gold digger nor do I want to make her think I'm one of those guys who cares more about his car than her. The only time I took my car on a first date was with a co-worker (I daily drove a chevy pickup with some rust on the lower cab corners).

That's a great start! I'm not too familiar with the Potenza RE960, but I know they have good reviews. SLP makes great products, and a CAI should be one of the first mods someone does to their car. Also, as another member stated, a new shifter / short stick combination is a GREAT upgrade for any M6 owner. I can't stress this enough. I had a 97 Z28 with the stock shifter and when I put a Pro 5.0 shifter in it, it was a night and day difference. My current '97 SS has the optional hurst shifter with a Lou's Short Stick and I love it. Also, with 85k miles you may look at a clutch upgrade when yours starts wearing out. I've owned 3 manual f-bodys, and they all had new clutches put in at around 100-120k mi. I wouldn't recommend anything too fancy, maybe a LS6/7 clutch or Spec II.

Subframe connectors and STB are definitely great first suspension modifications. You won't notice a whole lot of gain from the STB (shock tower brace) since the engine bay is pretty rigid. Subframe connectors are a pretty necessary upgrade to our cars. It'll make the car a lot more solid and also help prevent the doors from sagging. I don't think the brand matters too much for these products. I'd recommend weld-in and don't worry about the installation it shouldn't cost too much, as it'll only take the welder a hour or two.

A nice intake manifold (perhaps LS6) and headers will definitely help you in the future when you look to add that supercharger.

JakeRobb

The 2001 and 2002 LS1 cars came from the factory with the LS6 clutch and the LS6 intake manifold. I wouldn't bother replacing the clutch until your stock one dies, or at least until you have the trans out for some other reason. Pulling the trans is a lot of work!

When the time comes for me to upgrade my clutch, in the past I've always thought I would get the McLeod Street Twin. It's a dual-disc clutch, which is a great way to get lots of clamping power without making the pedal overly stiff. It's massive overkill for my power goals, but everything else that can handle the power levels I want forces to me make sacrifices in pedal effort. My car is primarily a street car, and I don't want to make those sacrifices.

The ST is pretty expensive, and I'm guessing that the LS9/ZR1 clutch (also dual-disc) is less expensive, while also not requiring me to sacrifice in terms of pedal effort while still being plenty for my power goals. I'm not sure it fits on an LS1, but it's an option to investigate.

My car has 97k on it, so I expect to need to replace the factory clutch soon. I'm sure that when I replace it, I'll report here on what I ended up doing and how I like the result.

As for the intake manifold, the FAST LSXR is really the only replacement that's worth your time. It's worth maybe 20hp over the LS6 manifold (which is what's already on your car) on a stock LS1, but the gains will be greater as you do more and more power mods.

Injuneer

My Formula was originally a T56 car, and I installed the Strange 12-bolt. Ran that way for 2 years. Did 6,000RPM clutch dumps with a Street Twin, and 28" slicks on sticky tracks. Strange 12-bolt survived just fine. Still going strong after 12 years in the car, but now it's living an easy life behind a TH400...... that'll give you whiplash when it shifts

TemplarKnight

I've been rethinking my stance on the supercharger idea, partly because of what JakeRobb said, and thinking about the possibilities of an engine swap. Part of my thinking is that when I get around to performing my big power boost, the car will likely be in the 120k miles department and throwing a super charger onto an engine that old will likely result in an early death(of the motor and/or me, depending on the circumstances). So I started considering an engine swap instead. I figure(maybe incorrectly, you tell me) the biggest selling point is that this will extend the life of my car considerably(basically resetting the miles to zero). As a result of this I've glanced at the process, an then looked at various LS engine swaps.

I have looked at swaps from LS2-LS9. I've also searched these forums looking at what's recommended and a lot of the time I've heard that it's VERY expensive and it's cheaper just to build up your current engine or to build one(I have no idea what either of those mean).

I am thinking that when I'm done I'd like to put out at least 450rwhp and be able to drive it on the street comfortably. I know I can get 450rwhp without touching the engine at all(for the most part) but somehow I think doing all that work and not adding the biggest power boost is like having a really great opening act and then having a mime as the closer(again, fool with a stock car, don't stone me).

What will fit in my car without too much fuss? I know theoretically any engine will fit into any car, but I'm not the auto messiah, I probably won't be able to make it work if no one has done it a hundred times before already and will probably give up on it before long. I thought an LS9 would be having my cake(the super charger) and eating it too would be nice, but finding that it's only been notably done once kind of deterred me.

I thought of the warhawk engine I heard about and going the NA route(even though I don't fully know what it means) and saw they have a 427 LS1. What does that mean?

I realize at some point I am going to have to pick up "cars for dummies" so I can find out how to really do this whole mess properly, but for now, I'm researching what I can, and asking about the rest.

JakeRobb

So, which current vehicles do you want to rival? In terms of power/acceleration, do you want to rival the amount of horsepower they have, or their acceleration?

Let's say you want to rival a 5th gen SS -- that's 426hp (~375 at the wheels), but 375rwhp in your 4th gen would be substantially faster than a 5th gen. And if that's really all you want to do in terms of power, then all you need is a camshaft, some valvetrain upgrades, and an exhaust.


Regarding tires, I just got my Continental ContiExtremeContact DWs in 275/40R17, and they are excellent. I haven't tried the RE960s, but I'd be shocked if they were this good.

TemplarKnight

Yeah, my thoughts were the 5th gen camaro or the new Mustang and primarily in numbers. For the most part I just want "brag numbers" and would rather have them at the wheels rather than the fly wheel. I'm not gonna street race, drag race, anything like that, may take to a track day just to open it up a bit, but all in all I will more than likely just be going "Yeah, 450rwhp, I'm awesome by association".

Am I officially hated now?

JakeRobb

No, you're good.

Just so you know, 450rwhp is a LOT compared to 5th gens and Mustangs, both of which fall under 400. It's also enough that my cam-only suggestion becomes impractical given your plans for the car.

Kraest had an LS1 car a while back (I can't remember if it was an F-body or a C5) that made 414rwhp with just a cam (a Futral F14HL if memory serves), a full dual exhaust, and a spot-on tune. Mike could probably confirm and give more details, but I'm pretty sure he's posted it all before, so try a search. He even posted videos of it so you can get an idea of the idle sound and how it accelerates.

For your goals, I think this is the best plan. I'd be curious to hear what others think.