Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
10-04-2004, 10:56 PM
#1
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Location: NYC, NY
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Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
Took my car to get aligned today at a Firestone, Got a call back saying the car has aftermarket parts, has been lowered and they can't align it to factory specs because it's been lowered. The ride height of the car affects all the other settings and if the ride height isn't stock, then the factory specs can't be used.
I'm aware that ride height can make it more difficult to get your camber right, but how can this change everything? To my understanding the wheel is being aligned in relation to how it sits on the ground and has little to nothing to do with how low the car sits. I've had the car aligned before with no problems, why so many problems now? I don't even understand how the ride height could have anything to do with it being possible to align the car. I'm no expert, but I thought I had a firm grasp on how all this works. If someone can explain to me why this is a problem when it never was in the past since it's been lowered please enlighten me, it would be appreciated. Maybe I could find someone to align it if I understood whaat the issue is.
94 firebird, BMR lower A Arms, DMS springs, dropped the typical 1 1/2
I'm aware that ride height can make it more difficult to get your camber right, but how can this change everything? To my understanding the wheel is being aligned in relation to how it sits on the ground and has little to nothing to do with how low the car sits. I've had the car aligned before with no problems, why so many problems now? I don't even understand how the ride height could have anything to do with it being possible to align the car. I'm no expert, but I thought I had a firm grasp on how all this works. If someone can explain to me why this is a problem when it never was in the past since it's been lowered please enlighten me, it would be appreciated. Maybe I could find someone to align it if I understood whaat the issue is.
94 firebird, BMR lower A Arms, DMS springs, dropped the typical 1 1/2
10-05-2004, 02:54 AM
#2
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Re: Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
I was told that the newer alignment racks are laser sighted. they have to put the make/model of your car in thecomputer and it gives them the needed adjustments. If the car is lowered, it throws off the lasers.
HOWEVER, it can still be done if the operator knows how to manipulate the numbers....thats the hard part. If all else fails, find a place with an old alignment rack.
HOWEVER, it can still be done if the operator knows how to manipulate the numbers....thats the hard part. If all else fails, find a place with an old alignment rack.
10-05-2004, 12:03 PM
#3
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Re: Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
Some shops just don't want the hassle of dealing with lowered cars, and getting complaints that require realignment. On top of that, I'd question why you are setting the alignment on a lowered car to the "stock" settings. There are better specs available, that will provide superior handling results..... just take a look at the 4th Gen FAQ for suggested setting for lowered cars.
Finally, ride height affects alignment because of the way the suspension is layed out. The upper and lower A-arms are different lengths, so they swing in different arcs. Lower the car 1" and the change in distance of the upper A-arm ball joint to the A-arm pivot changes at a faster rate than the same measurement on the lower A-arm. So, camber will be affected. And, the upper and lower A-arms each rotate around two independant pivot points. When you alter the lower pivot points to control caster, you take the upper and lower pivot points out of the same plane, so there is a fairly complex relationship in the way the 4 pivot points move in space as the suspension is lowered. Here's a link to an interesting graphic that shows the affect of the unequal length A-arm type suspension..... scroll about 1/4-way down, and look at the .gif of the unequal length A-arm suspension on the right side.
http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/t_...sion.htm#Front
Finally, ride height affects alignment because of the way the suspension is layed out. The upper and lower A-arms are different lengths, so they swing in different arcs. Lower the car 1" and the change in distance of the upper A-arm ball joint to the A-arm pivot changes at a faster rate than the same measurement on the lower A-arm. So, camber will be affected. And, the upper and lower A-arms each rotate around two independant pivot points. When you alter the lower pivot points to control caster, you take the upper and lower pivot points out of the same plane, so there is a fairly complex relationship in the way the 4 pivot points move in space as the suspension is lowered. Here's a link to an interesting graphic that shows the affect of the unequal length A-arm type suspension..... scroll about 1/4-way down, and look at the .gif of the unequal length A-arm suspension on the right side.
http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/t_...sion.htm#Front
Last edited by Injuneer; 10-05-2004 at 12:08 PM.
11-16-2004, 03:32 PM
#4
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Re: Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
Originally Posted by Injuneer
Some shops just don't want the hassle of dealing with lowered cars, and getting complaints that require realignment. On top of that, I'd question why you are setting the alignment on a lowered car to the "stock" settings. There are better specs available, that will provide superior handling results..... just take a look at the 4th Gen FAQ for suggested setting for lowered cars.
Finally, ride height affects alignment because of the way the suspension is layed out. The upper and lower A-arms are different lengths, so they swing in different arcs. Lower the car 1" and the change in distance of the upper A-arm ball joint to the A-arm pivot changes at a faster rate than the same measurement on the lower A-arm. So, camber will be affected. And, the upper and lower A-arms each rotate around two independant pivot points. When you alter the lower pivot points to control caster, you take the upper and lower pivot points out of the same plane, so there is a fairly complex relationship in the way the 4 pivot points move in space as the suspension is lowered. Here's a link to an interesting graphic that shows the affect of the unequal length A-arm type suspension..... scroll about 1/4-way down, and look at the .gif of the unequal length A-arm suspension on the right side.
http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/t_...sion.htm#Front
Finally, ride height affects alignment because of the way the suspension is layed out. The upper and lower A-arms are different lengths, so they swing in different arcs. Lower the car 1" and the change in distance of the upper A-arm ball joint to the A-arm pivot changes at a faster rate than the same measurement on the lower A-arm. So, camber will be affected. And, the upper and lower A-arms each rotate around two independant pivot points. When you alter the lower pivot points to control caster, you take the upper and lower pivot points out of the same plane, so there is a fairly complex relationship in the way the 4 pivot points move in space as the suspension is lowered. Here's a link to an interesting graphic that shows the affect of the unequal length A-arm type suspension..... scroll about 1/4-way down, and look at the .gif of the unequal length A-arm suspension on the right side.
http://www.miracerros.com/mustang/t_...sion.htm#Front
11-16-2004, 04:09 PM
#5
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Re: Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
recommended alignment for street/performance use:
Camber :-0.5' to -1.0'
Caster : +4.5'
Toe : 0"
recommended alignment for people that want to race the car.
Camber : -1.5' to -2.0'
Caster : +4.5' to +5.0' (as long as not hinder your camber)
Toe : (depends on applications).. but some toe-out (1/32" to 3/16") for better turn-in response... but less stable at high speeds... toe-in for high-speed stability.
Camber :-0.5' to -1.0'
Caster : +4.5'
Toe : 0"
recommended alignment for people that want to race the car.
Camber : -1.5' to -2.0'
Caster : +4.5' to +5.0' (as long as not hinder your camber)
Toe : (depends on applications).. but some toe-out (1/32" to 3/16") for better turn-in response... but less stable at high speeds... toe-in for high-speed stability.
11-16-2004, 05:59 PM
#6
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Location: Arlington, TX USA
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Re: Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
Originally Posted by ZaneO
recommended alignment for street/performance use:
Camber :-0.5' to -1.0'
Caster : +4.5'
Toe : 0"
recommended alignment for people that want to race the car.
Camber : -1.5' to -2.0'
Caster : +4.5' to +5.0' (as long as not hinder your camber)
Toe : (depends on applications).. but some toe-out (1/32" to 3/16") for better turn-in response... but less stable at high speeds... toe-in for high-speed stability.
Camber :-0.5' to -1.0'
Caster : +4.5'
Toe : 0"
recommended alignment for people that want to race the car.
Camber : -1.5' to -2.0'
Caster : +4.5' to +5.0' (as long as not hinder your camber)
Toe : (depends on applications).. but some toe-out (1/32" to 3/16") for better turn-in response... but less stable at high speeds... toe-in for high-speed stability.
I've had an '83 Z28 before that was very twitchy, so remembering that, I went for a slight amount of toe-in, although I've been told that the 4th Gens are a more stable at 0 toe or even a little toe out than a 3rd Gen.
The '99 is very stable at speed, and tracks really straight too...and it doesn't wear me out having to make minute corrections every 2 seconds with the steering wheel.
11-16-2004, 11:33 PM
#7
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Location: Hell was full so they sent me to NJ
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Re: Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
When my car was lowered, it was aligned at -1deg camber, +4deg caster, and 0.1 toe-in. Handling was good. Steering was good. No evidence of any uneven tire wear.
11-19-2004, 09:31 AM
#8
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 192
Re: Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
Stupid Dayton Chevy in NJ did my lowering springs and shocks 3 years ago, told me that "the alignment would not hold" and they would not fix it if it went out of alignment. Well....it held until I recently replaced the shocks a springs.
11-20-2004, 03:16 PM
#9
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Location: state of confusion
Posts: 234
Re: Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
Chris - Take a moment to read the first nine words of the title of this thread. And a few more for the first paragraph in the opening post, which I'm quoting in part here for your convenience.
When you replaced the springs, you almost certainly upset the previously established static ride height. Understand that Dayton Chevrolet cannot possibly have any control over ride height changes that you might make after their installation of the first set. In fact, that may have been why they didn't want to guarantee the settings in the first place, as aftermarket springs may settle more or do so more quickly than the official GM parts.
All you should have to do is reset things to suit the new height.
Norm
Took my car to get aligned today at a Firestone, Got a call back saying the car <snip> , has been lowered and <snip> . . . The ride height of the car affects all the other settings and if the ride height isn't stock . . .
All you should have to do is reset things to suit the new height.
Norm
Last edited by Norm Peterson; 11-20-2004 at 03:20 PM.
11-20-2004, 03:33 PM
#10
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Re: Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
Norm:
I think you missed Chris's point.... he wasn't complaining because his alignment changed when he later swapped springs and changed the ride height. He was simply explaining that even the dealer who did his original spring install was overly cautious, and told him the alignment "wouldn't hold", then pointing out that it DID hold for 3 years. I think he was simply supporting my position that many shops don't want to work on lowered cars.
I think you missed Chris's point.... he wasn't complaining because his alignment changed when he later swapped springs and changed the ride height. He was simply explaining that even the dealer who did his original spring install was overly cautious, and told him the alignment "wouldn't hold", then pointing out that it DID hold for 3 years. I think he was simply supporting my position that many shops don't want to work on lowered cars.
11-20-2004, 05:04 PM
#11
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Re: Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
I guess you could read it that way. So no flame intended.
But since it sounded a bit harsh to call the dealership 'stupid' after their admittedly out-of-stock work held up for three years, I thought he was reserving some blame for them even after all that time. Chalk it up to keyboard anonymity.
Believe me, I know that shops (and dealerships in particular) don't like to work with non-stock stuff. Not quite a year spent (fairly recently) in a local Chevy dealer service department shuttling customers, chasing parts, etc., gave me a glimpse from the other side.
Norm
But since it sounded a bit harsh to call the dealership 'stupid' after their admittedly out-of-stock work held up for three years, I thought he was reserving some blame for them even after all that time. Chalk it up to keyboard anonymity.
Believe me, I know that shops (and dealerships in particular) don't like to work with non-stock stuff. Not quite a year spent (fairly recently) in a local Chevy dealer service department shuttling customers, chasing parts, etc., gave me a glimpse from the other side.
Norm
11-28-2004, 02:10 AM
#12
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Location: Central Iowa, Des Moines area
Posts: 47
Re: Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
As some of the folks said above, not all shops want to mess with trying to align cars that have been lowered.
My lead mechanic/shop foreman doesn't like doing them but since the boss (me) owns two Camaros (both of them lowered) and is very active in the local Camaro club, we lower quite a few Camaros and then obviously have to align them. He has gotten very good at doing them but occasionally he may encounter one that could take him a couple of hours to do.
Keep in mind that when a Camaro is lowered, it totally skews caster, camber and toe which all need to be set (as has been mentioned previously in this thread).
If the Firestone store doesn't want to do this type of alignment, it tells me that they probably don't have a capable mechanic that is comfortable doing this type of alignment. He may also not have the necessary tools to perform this type of an alignment on a 4th gen F-Body. I know my lead mechanic/shop foreman had to go out and purchase a special tool to perform these alignments. This tool is necessary for bringing caster and camber into spec.'s (either stock or custom).
Also, don't expect any shop to align your car for $40 or $50. This is not a standard alignment and it certainly requires more work and more of the mechanic's time.
Call around and ask to talk to the mechanic who does the alignments in each shop in your area. Feel him out and see how much he knows and if he has the right tools and knowledge to align your lowered F-Body.
My lead mechanic/shop foreman doesn't like doing them but since the boss (me) owns two Camaros (both of them lowered) and is very active in the local Camaro club, we lower quite a few Camaros and then obviously have to align them. He has gotten very good at doing them but occasionally he may encounter one that could take him a couple of hours to do.
Keep in mind that when a Camaro is lowered, it totally skews caster, camber and toe which all need to be set (as has been mentioned previously in this thread).
If the Firestone store doesn't want to do this type of alignment, it tells me that they probably don't have a capable mechanic that is comfortable doing this type of alignment. He may also not have the necessary tools to perform this type of an alignment on a 4th gen F-Body. I know my lead mechanic/shop foreman had to go out and purchase a special tool to perform these alignments. This tool is necessary for bringing caster and camber into spec.'s (either stock or custom).
Also, don't expect any shop to align your car for $40 or $50. This is not a standard alignment and it certainly requires more work and more of the mechanic's time.
Call around and ask to talk to the mechanic who does the alignments in each shop in your area. Feel him out and see how much he knows and if he has the right tools and knowledge to align your lowered F-Body.
Last edited by 02zl1_97ss; 11-28-2004 at 02:17 AM.
11-28-2004, 05:35 PM
#13
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 252
Re: Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
Originally Posted by 02zl1_97ss
As some of the folks said above, not all shops want to mess with trying to align cars that have been lowered.
My lead mechanic/shop foreman doesn't like doing them but since the boss (me) owns two Camaros (both of them lowered) and is very active in the local Camaro club, we lower quite a few Camaros and then obviously have to align them. He has gotten very good at doing them but occasionally he may encounter one that could take him a couple of hours to do.
Keep in mind that when a Camaro is lowered, it totally skews caster, camber and toe which all need to be set (as has been mentioned previously in this thread).
If the Firestone store doesn't want to do this type of alignment, it tells me that they probably don't have a capable mechanic that is comfortable doing this type of alignment. He may also not have the necessary tools to perform this type of an alignment on a 4th gen F-Body. I know my lead mechanic/shop foreman had to go out and purchase a special tool to perform these alignments. This tool is necessary for bringing caster and camber into spec.'s (either stock or custom).
Also, don't expect any shop to align your car for $40 or $50. This is not a standard alignment and it certainly requires more work and more of the mechanic's time.
Call around and ask to talk to the mechanic who does the alignments in each shop in your area. Feel him out and see how much he knows and if he has the right tools and knowledge to align your lowered F-Body.
My lead mechanic/shop foreman doesn't like doing them but since the boss (me) owns two Camaros (both of them lowered) and is very active in the local Camaro club, we lower quite a few Camaros and then obviously have to align them. He has gotten very good at doing them but occasionally he may encounter one that could take him a couple of hours to do.
Keep in mind that when a Camaro is lowered, it totally skews caster, camber and toe which all need to be set (as has been mentioned previously in this thread).
If the Firestone store doesn't want to do this type of alignment, it tells me that they probably don't have a capable mechanic that is comfortable doing this type of alignment. He may also not have the necessary tools to perform this type of an alignment on a 4th gen F-Body. I know my lead mechanic/shop foreman had to go out and purchase a special tool to perform these alignments. This tool is necessary for bringing caster and camber into spec.'s (either stock or custom).
Also, don't expect any shop to align your car for $40 or $50. This is not a standard alignment and it certainly requires more work and more of the mechanic's time.
Call around and ask to talk to the mechanic who does the alignments in each shop in your area. Feel him out and see how much he knows and if he has the right tools and knowledge to align your lowered F-Body.
11-28-2004, 09:12 PM
#14
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Central Iowa, Des Moines area
Posts: 47
Re: Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
Originally Posted by JoeMack
I tell ya, I don't know what special tools or any special effort that would be needed to do an alignment on a lowered 4th gen. F-body. I just had my lowered car aligned by a local Colony Tire (Goodyear dealership), using specs that I found were recomended by members on this site and watched the hole process. He had no problem coming really close to the specs I showed him, using only basic hand tools. It took him all of 45 minutes. Thats with me talking his ear off. He even took the time to sit in the drivers seat to account for the extra drivers weight. I paid $29.95 (with a $10 coupon). So far so good. Car tracks great and even feels a little tighter.
I'm happy for you JoeMack. Sounds like you got a bargin but I have to wonder whether the mechanic at Colony Tire did anything other than set toe-in. It takes about 45 minutes to hang the heads, adjust toe-in and take the alignment heads off the car.
The tool that I referred to above is:
HD CAMARO/FIREBIRD CAMBER TOOL
• Adjusts camber of 1993 and newer Camaro and Firebird automobiles
• Heavy-duty design allows camber and caster adjustment with weight on vehicle
Part#: CT88HD Price: $89.20
This tool is available from Matco tools. I am sure that Snap-On and the other tool vendors sell them too. You really need two of them to do the job properly.
Here is the link so that you may look at the tool:
http://www.matcotools.com/Catalog/to...select=&page=3
This tool allows us to pull in or push out the camber and caster on the vehicle.
Did your mechanic at Colony Tire use tools like this to align your F-Body? Possibly your caster and camber settings were fine and didn't need any adjustment other than a toe-in adjustment. Did you just now lower your car and have it aligned or was it lowered and aligned some time back and now you have experienced an alignment problem and had the car re-aligned? With my experience in lowering F-Body cars, I haven't seen one yet that after it was lowered that Caster, Camber and Toe-In were all way out and needed to be adjusted back in. The process of installing lowering springs changes the ride height of the car and changes the geometry of it.
Last edited by 02zl1_97ss; 11-28-2004 at 09:37 PM.
11-29-2004, 01:07 AM
#15
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Colorado
Posts: 971
Re: Ride height affect the alignment settings of a car since when?
Originally Posted by 02zl1_97ss
It takes about 45 minutes to hang the heads, adjust toe-in and take the alignment heads off the car.