Time to Bore out by Rear end from a 10-bolt toa v[
08-02-2004, 09:42 PM
#1
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Time to Bore out by Rear end from a 10-bolt toa v[
OK, I got my Delteq installed, Hawk Pads, SLP LoudMouth, new fuel pump, and caught up on all my general maintenance. Even detailed it inside and out... Now it's time for a new clutch... In the next month or so it will have a McLeod dual friction setup.
I noticed when I was putting my driveshaft in that my pinion has a good 1/8 turn or so of slop in it... Just about to grenade I suppose, and if my clutch didn't slip so bad it would probably already have blown to bits. I figure as soon as I get that clutch put in it'll be time for a 12-bolt rear end.
I also have the parts to do the LS1 front brake upgrade, so whatever rear end I go with I'll want to use the rear LS1 brakes mainly for the better parking brake setup.
So here are my questions!!!
I definitely want to go with a 12-bolt. I know the 9-inches are probably a little stronger, but no Ford part shall desecrate my GM cherry!!!
What are my choices for purchasing "Off-the-Shelf" 12-bolts that are ready to bolt in?
Available Gear Ratios?
Available differentials, say torsen diffs, auburn posis, etc.???
Can I have one shipped to my door???
I think I would be pretty happy with a 12-bolt Torsen differential, 5.13 gears, and LS1 discs. How much will that all cost me as one nice package shipped to my door??? :looney:
Paul 'X'
I noticed when I was putting my driveshaft in that my pinion has a good 1/8 turn or so of slop in it... Just about to grenade I suppose, and if my clutch didn't slip so bad it would probably already have blown to bits. I figure as soon as I get that clutch put in it'll be time for a 12-bolt rear end.
I also have the parts to do the LS1 front brake upgrade, so whatever rear end I go with I'll want to use the rear LS1 brakes mainly for the better parking brake setup.
So here are my questions!!!
I definitely want to go with a 12-bolt. I know the 9-inches are probably a little stronger, but no Ford part shall desecrate my GM cherry!!! What are my choices for purchasing "Off-the-Shelf" 12-bolts that are ready to bolt in? Available Gear Ratios? Available differentials, say torsen diffs, auburn posis, etc.??? Can I have one shipped to my door??? I think I would be pretty happy with a 12-bolt Torsen differential, 5.13 gears, and LS1 discs. How much will that all cost me as one nice package shipped to my door??? :looney:
Paul 'X'
08-02-2004, 10:37 PM
#2
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,445
Re: Time to Bore out by Rear end from a 10-bolt toa v[
12-bolt rears do NOT have a T2 or T2R Torsen unit available. Likewise, there is no Quaife unit. There are teh following options for 12-bolt guys:
Open diff - why bother?
mini-spool - drag strip only
Spool - drag strip only
Eaton HD - Available in 400 and 800 pounds of pre-load; clutch-pack LSD
Auburn High Performance - slightly less torque bias (~4.5:1 ?); clutch pack LSD
Auburn Pro Diff - high torque bias (~5:1); clutch-pack LSD
Auburn Electronic Locker - standard torque bias (~2.5:1) unlocked; clutch-pack LSD when unlocked, can be locked up manually at any speed... or in the burnout box... your choise.
Personally I'm kinda peeved that Torsen doesn't make a unit for the 12-bolt, although you CAN get the T2R in the Ford 8.8 rearend... so you do have other options if you want to road-race an aftermarket rearend.
Likewise, the Ford 9" also has helical gear units on par with the Torsen... like the Quaife units... they ain't cheap (~$1200 for that diff) although they do have a life-time warranty.
If you're looking for a Detroit Locker, Electronic Locker, or clutch-pack LSD (posi) you're fine with almost any rearend you choose... helical gears have a much smaller selection though.
---------------------------------------------
Beyond differentials, you need to look at ABS/Traction control. If you have traction control (and hense... 4 channel ABS) you're fine either way. If you have 3-channel ABS (i.e. no traction control) there isn't a 9" rear designed to handle the reluctor ring nessesary. 3-channel cars from 1996 onwards (i.e. OBD-II cars) can tap the VSS signal in the trans for the ABS unit I belive... but you may have to buy a electronic "conversion box" for ~$400. The other option is to press a custom reluctor ring onto the output shaft and rig the sensor to read from there.
Converting a car from 3-channel to 4-channel ABS isn't impossible, but it ain't easy and involves almost complete replacement of the brake system, the rearend sensors (duh, that's the point right?), and of course installation of the Traction Control module. You "might" even need to tap into the body control module through the harness... I don't know for sure, never heard of anyone actually doing this.
---------------------------------
Gear ratios are a bit different, but for anything less than 4.9:1 12-bolt is still supported. 9" ratios can be had in much tighter increments, but I've never heard of anyone with a problem finding a 12-bolt ratio they like (there's just as many 12-bolt ratios as there are 10-bolt).
-----------------------------------
12-bolts are a bit more efficent and have survived to over 1000rwhp so there's no doubt that either rearend is durable enough for all but the heaviest, more powerful, fully-tubbed, slick-wearing cars. I'm sure it's still possible to hammer a 12-bolt pretty hard, but I imagine bearings go out a whole lot more than any Ring or Pinion teeth problems.
There's more to this topic obviously but that's the basics as I recall them.
Open diff - why bother?
mini-spool - drag strip only
Spool - drag strip only
Eaton HD - Available in 400 and 800 pounds of pre-load; clutch-pack LSD
Auburn High Performance - slightly less torque bias (~4.5:1 ?); clutch pack LSD
Auburn Pro Diff - high torque bias (~5:1); clutch-pack LSD
Auburn Electronic Locker - standard torque bias (~2.5:1) unlocked; clutch-pack LSD when unlocked, can be locked up manually at any speed... or in the burnout box... your choise.
Personally I'm kinda peeved that Torsen doesn't make a unit for the 12-bolt, although you CAN get the T2R in the Ford 8.8 rearend... so you do have other options if you want to road-race an aftermarket rearend.
Likewise, the Ford 9" also has helical gear units on par with the Torsen... like the Quaife units... they ain't cheap (~$1200 for that diff) although they do have a life-time warranty.
If you're looking for a Detroit Locker, Electronic Locker, or clutch-pack LSD (posi) you're fine with almost any rearend you choose... helical gears have a much smaller selection though.
---------------------------------------------
Beyond differentials, you need to look at ABS/Traction control. If you have traction control (and hense... 4 channel ABS) you're fine either way. If you have 3-channel ABS (i.e. no traction control) there isn't a 9" rear designed to handle the reluctor ring nessesary. 3-channel cars from 1996 onwards (i.e. OBD-II cars) can tap the VSS signal in the trans for the ABS unit I belive... but you may have to buy a electronic "conversion box" for ~$400. The other option is to press a custom reluctor ring onto the output shaft and rig the sensor to read from there.
Converting a car from 3-channel to 4-channel ABS isn't impossible, but it ain't easy and involves almost complete replacement of the brake system, the rearend sensors (duh, that's the point right?
), and of course installation of the Traction Control module. You "might" even need to tap into the body control module through the harness... I don't know for sure, never heard of anyone actually doing this.---------------------------------
Gear ratios are a bit different, but for anything less than 4.9:1 12-bolt is still supported. 9" ratios can be had in much tighter increments, but I've never heard of anyone with a problem finding a 12-bolt ratio they like (there's just as many 12-bolt ratios as there are 10-bolt).
-----------------------------------
12-bolts are a bit more efficent and have survived to over 1000rwhp so there's no doubt that either rearend is durable enough for all but the heaviest, more powerful, fully-tubbed, slick-wearing cars. I'm sure it's still possible to hammer a 12-bolt pretty hard, but I imagine bearings go out a whole lot more than any Ring or Pinion teeth problems.
There's more to this topic obviously but that's the basics as I recall them.
08-02-2004, 11:28 PM
#3
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Posts: 10,745
Re: Time to Bore out by Rear end from a 10-bolt toa v[
Nice review by Steve! I didn't know about the Auburn electronic locker. Sounds interesting, though probably pricey.
I am using a Moser 12-bolt with the Eaton (800lb preload) and I like it. It has stood up to mutiple launches. First with the M6 and now with a TH400+brake. The car weighs ~4,000lbs and has over 700rwhp, so it's pretty strong. Of course, I am using a 10" tire so there is only so much torque the tires will transmit. It cost about $2,400 shipped with 33-spline axles and the Eaton posi.
Rich
I am using a Moser 12-bolt with the Eaton (800lb preload) and I like it. It has stood up to mutiple launches. First with the M6 and now with a TH400+brake. The car weighs ~4,000lbs and has over 700rwhp, so it's pretty strong. Of course, I am using a 10" tire so there is only so much torque the tires will transmit. It cost about $2,400 shipped with 33-spline axles and the Eaton posi.
Rich
08-03-2004, 12:20 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,445
Re: Time to Bore out by Rear end from a 10-bolt toa v[
Originally Posted by rskrause
I didn't know about the Auburn electronic locker. Sounds interesting, though probably pricey.
Installation is drilling 1 small hole for the wire, otherwise it's a normal posi. Sounds like the perfect solution for a street-strip car in my books... although the road race guys can't really use it for much (unless that manual lock-up can be automated for straight-aways and they find a way to make the posi-mode function with 4 or 5:1 torque bias like a high performance diff).
I sent Auburn mail and they said the 12-bolt would be out in a month or so, MSRP was around $600 I belive, and the bias ratio is comparable to a True-trac or Torsen T2 diff (~2.5:1). For comparison, the Eaton HD units have around 4:1 bias from what I've read.
That 8.8" conversion is sounding better all the time. (Especially the IRS on the Lincolns
).
08-03-2004, 01:17 AM
#5
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Location: NC
Posts: 570
Re: Time to Bore out by Rear end from a 10-bolt toa v[
Originally Posted by Steve in Seattle
12-bolt rears do NOT have a T2 or T2R Torsen unit available. Likewise, there is no Quaife unit. There are teh following options for 12-bolt guys:
Open diff - why bother?
mini-spool - drag strip only
Spool - drag strip only
Eaton HD - Available in 400 and 800 pounds of pre-load; clutch-pack LSD
Auburn High Performance - slightly less torque bias (~4.5:1 ?); clutch pack LSD
Auburn Pro Diff - high torque bias (~5:1); clutch-pack LSD
Auburn Electronic Locker - standard torque bias (~2.5:1) unlocked; clutch-pack LSD when unlocked, can be locked up manually at any speed... or in the burnout box... your choise.
Personally I'm kinda peeved that Torsen doesn't make a unit for the 12-bolt, although you CAN get the T2R in the Ford 8.8 rearend... so you do have other options if you want to road-race an aftermarket rearend.
Likewise, the Ford 9" also has helical gear units on par with the Torsen... like the Quaife units... they ain't cheap (~$1200 for that diff) although they do have a life-time warranty.
If you're looking for a Detroit Locker, Electronic Locker, or clutch-pack LSD (posi) you're fine with almost any rearend you choose... helical gears have a much smaller selection though.
---------------------------------------------
Beyond differentials, you need to look at ABS/Traction control. If you have traction control (and hense... 4 channel ABS) you're fine either way. If you have 3-channel ABS (i.e. no traction control) there isn't a 9" rear designed to handle the reluctor ring nessesary. 3-channel cars from 1996 onwards (i.e. OBD-II cars) can tap the VSS signal in the trans for the ABS unit I belive... but you may have to buy a electronic "conversion box" for ~$400. The other option is to press a custom reluctor ring onto the output shaft and rig the sensor to read from there.
Converting a car from 3-channel to 4-channel ABS isn't impossible, but it ain't easy and involves almost complete replacement of the brake system, the rearend sensors (duh, that's the point right?), and of course installation of the Traction Control module. You "might" even need to tap into the body control module through the harness... I don't know for sure, never heard of anyone actually doing this.
---------------------------------
Gear ratios are a bit different, but for anything less than 4.9:1 12-bolt is still supported. 9" ratios can be had in much tighter increments, but I've never heard of anyone with a problem finding a 12-bolt ratio they like (there's just as many 12-bolt ratios as there are 10-bolt).
-----------------------------------
12-bolts are a bit more efficent and have survived to over 1000rwhp so there's no doubt that either rearend is durable enough for all but the heaviest, more powerful, fully-tubbed, slick-wearing cars. I'm sure it's still possible to hammer a 12-bolt pretty hard, but I imagine bearings go out a whole lot more than any Ring or Pinion teeth problems.
There's more to this topic obviously but that's the basics as I recall them.
Open diff - why bother?
mini-spool - drag strip only
Spool - drag strip only
Eaton HD - Available in 400 and 800 pounds of pre-load; clutch-pack LSD
Auburn High Performance - slightly less torque bias (~4.5:1 ?); clutch pack LSD
Auburn Pro Diff - high torque bias (~5:1); clutch-pack LSD
Auburn Electronic Locker - standard torque bias (~2.5:1) unlocked; clutch-pack LSD when unlocked, can be locked up manually at any speed... or in the burnout box... your choise.
Personally I'm kinda peeved that Torsen doesn't make a unit for the 12-bolt, although you CAN get the T2R in the Ford 8.8 rearend... so you do have other options if you want to road-race an aftermarket rearend.
Likewise, the Ford 9" also has helical gear units on par with the Torsen... like the Quaife units... they ain't cheap (~$1200 for that diff) although they do have a life-time warranty.
If you're looking for a Detroit Locker, Electronic Locker, or clutch-pack LSD (posi) you're fine with almost any rearend you choose... helical gears have a much smaller selection though.
---------------------------------------------
Beyond differentials, you need to look at ABS/Traction control. If you have traction control (and hense... 4 channel ABS) you're fine either way. If you have 3-channel ABS (i.e. no traction control) there isn't a 9" rear designed to handle the reluctor ring nessesary. 3-channel cars from 1996 onwards (i.e. OBD-II cars) can tap the VSS signal in the trans for the ABS unit I belive... but you may have to buy a electronic "conversion box" for ~$400. The other option is to press a custom reluctor ring onto the output shaft and rig the sensor to read from there.
Converting a car from 3-channel to 4-channel ABS isn't impossible, but it ain't easy and involves almost complete replacement of the brake system, the rearend sensors (duh, that's the point right?
), and of course installation of the Traction Control module. You "might" even need to tap into the body control module through the harness... I don't know for sure, never heard of anyone actually doing this.---------------------------------
Gear ratios are a bit different, but for anything less than 4.9:1 12-bolt is still supported. 9" ratios can be had in much tighter increments, but I've never heard of anyone with a problem finding a 12-bolt ratio they like (there's just as many 12-bolt ratios as there are 10-bolt).
-----------------------------------
12-bolts are a bit more efficent and have survived to over 1000rwhp so there's no doubt that either rearend is durable enough for all but the heaviest, more powerful, fully-tubbed, slick-wearing cars. I'm sure it's still possible to hammer a 12-bolt pretty hard, but I imagine bearings go out a whole lot more than any Ring or Pinion teeth problems.
There's more to this topic obviously but that's the basics as I recall them.
Is there anyone besides Moser offering straight bolt-in units shipped to your door? Not that I have any problem with Moser, but I like to shop around before dropping this much cash on a single item...
I'm running just over 300rwhp right now, and over the next few years will work my way up to the 600-700rwhp mark. I don't want to go beyond what's streetable, meaning I drive the car every day, and IMHO if you can't drive it to the track and back, and to work on Monday morning, it isn't streetable.
I'll probably get my stock motor up to 400hp and by that time it'll have some miles on the clock and need a rebuild, so I'll rebuild it for the sole purpose of supercharging it, and go with a centrifigul supercharger to make that big leap into the big horsepower. Heck, these days 300hp isn't squat when Honda Civics have 250hp V6's and Dodge Station Wagons have 350hp Hemi's...
So anyway I doubt I'll ever see 1000hp and I'll never be running slicks, as I'm more into the pro touring thing than the dragstrip. I Love the Dragstrip too, but my car won't be set up strictly for 1/4 mile runs. On the stock suspension, with nothing but an SLP CAI, on crappy cheap and nearly bald stock tires, it ran a very traction limited 14.01 about a year ago. Since then I've put on the SLP LoudMouth, Delteq Ignition, and ZR1 wheels with 275/40-ZR17's all the way around. It launches real hard if the tires are nice and hot, but the clutch slips pretty bad in 2nd so I'm curious what it will run now, and then what it will run with that new McLeod dual friction clutch setup that's on the wish list for next month. (That's why I'm looking into rear ends THIS month!)
OK, enough babbling. Thanks again for all the info!
Cheers,
Paul
08-03-2004, 01:22 AM
#6
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NC
Posts: 570
Re: Time to Bore out by Rear end from a 10-bolt toa v[
Originally Posted by rskrause
Nice review by Steve! I didn't know about the Auburn electronic locker. Sounds interesting, though probably pricey.
I am using a Moser 12-bolt with the Eaton (800lb preload) and I like it. It has stood up to mutiple launches. First with the M6 and now with a TH400+brake. The car weighs ~4,000lbs and has over 700rwhp, so it's pretty strong. Of course, I am using a 10" tire so there is only so much torque the tires will transmit. It cost about $2,400 shipped with 33-spline axles and the Eaton posi.
Rich
I am using a Moser 12-bolt with the Eaton (800lb preload) and I like it. It has stood up to mutiple launches. First with the M6 and now with a TH400+brake. The car weighs ~4,000lbs and has over 700rwhp, so it's pretty strong. Of course, I am using a 10" tire so there is only so much torque the tires will transmit. It cost about $2,400 shipped with 33-spline axles and the Eaton posi.
Rich
How 'complete' was your Moser for $2,400??? Was it ready to bolt in, or did you have to use your own brakes, etc.? Steve mentioned ABS... I only have ABS, no traction control... Did you keep all of this in tact? I will want it to remain functional...
Thanks for the info!
Cheers,
Paul
08-03-2004, 06:30 AM
#7
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 2,667
Re: Time to Bore out by Rear end from a 10-bolt toa v[
Strange Engineering also makes a drop-in unit.
The only small thing that can be an issue with the Moser is the mounting of the TA. Moser uses 4 smaller bolts that are known to back out. Strange uses the stock bolts that pass through the entire pumpkin.
I have the Strange unit, with 3ch ABS, 3.73 gears, 800# springs in the Eaton Posi, 33 spline axles. It was complete from axle flange to axle flange. They do NOT come woth brakes, but you must specify what brakes you will be using so they can attach the correct tube ends/mtg brackets.
The only thing I had to do to install mine was as follows:
Remove old rear axle
Paint new Strange (After masking off Yoke and cover, axle flanges)
Swap over brakes & Brake lines
The only facrication required is commming up with a connector for the ABS. Strange only supplied a pigtail with the 2 sensor wires, this is due to the TINY hall effect sensor that they use.
It even came filled with lube, I'm actually at the point where I'm going to do my 1K mile oil change this upcomming weekend.
The only small thing that can be an issue with the Moser is the mounting of the TA. Moser uses 4 smaller bolts that are known to back out. Strange uses the stock bolts that pass through the entire pumpkin.
I have the Strange unit, with 3ch ABS, 3.73 gears, 800# springs in the Eaton Posi, 33 spline axles. It was complete from axle flange to axle flange. They do NOT come woth brakes, but you must specify what brakes you will be using so they can attach the correct tube ends/mtg brackets.
The only thing I had to do to install mine was as follows:
Remove old rear axle
Paint new Strange (After masking off Yoke and cover, axle flanges)
Swap over brakes & Brake lines
The only facrication required is commming up with a connector for the ABS. Strange only supplied a pigtail with the 2 sensor wires, this is due to the TINY hall effect sensor that they use.
It even came filled with lube, I'm actually at the point where I'm going to do my 1K mile oil change this upcomming weekend.
08-03-2004, 06:00 PM
#8
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: NC
Posts: 570
Re: Time to Bore out by Rear end from a 10-bolt toa v[
Originally Posted by 97FormulaWS-6
Strange Engineering also makes a drop-in unit.
The only small thing that can be an issue with the Moser is the mounting of the TA. Moser uses 4 smaller bolts that are known to back out. Strange uses the stock bolts that pass through the entire pumpkin.
I have the Strange unit, with 3ch ABS, 3.73 gears, 800# springs in the Eaton Posi, 33 spline axles. It was complete from axle flange to axle flange. They do NOT come woth brakes, but you must specify what brakes you will be using so they can attach the correct tube ends/mtg brackets.
The only thing I had to do to install mine was as follows:
Remove old rear axle
Paint new Strange (After masking off Yoke and cover, axle flanges)
Swap over brakes & Brake lines
The only facrication required is commming up with a connector for the ABS. Strange only supplied a pigtail with the 2 sensor wires, this is due to the TINY hall effect sensor that they use.
It even came filled with lube, I'm actually at the point where I'm going to do my 1K mile oil change this upcomming weekend.
The only small thing that can be an issue with the Moser is the mounting of the TA. Moser uses 4 smaller bolts that are known to back out. Strange uses the stock bolts that pass through the entire pumpkin.
I have the Strange unit, with 3ch ABS, 3.73 gears, 800# springs in the Eaton Posi, 33 spline axles. It was complete from axle flange to axle flange. They do NOT come woth brakes, but you must specify what brakes you will be using so they can attach the correct tube ends/mtg brackets.
The only thing I had to do to install mine was as follows:
Remove old rear axle
Paint new Strange (After masking off Yoke and cover, axle flanges)
Swap over brakes & Brake lines
The only facrication required is commming up with a connector for the ABS. Strange only supplied a pigtail with the 2 sensor wires, this is due to the TINY hall effect sensor that they use.
It even came filled with lube, I'm actually at the point where I'm going to do my 1K mile oil change this upcomming weekend.
Cheers,
Paul
08-03-2004, 07:39 PM
#9
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 2,667
Re: Time to Bore out by Rear end from a 10-bolt toa v[
I got mine on a GP through Tbyrne for ~2300 Shipped, then another $25 for the 1K mile gasket, additive, and oil... $20 for Paint and Primer, and I had the brake fluid already in the garage. :P
Although I splurged (Not really, just got pissed off with a problem) and spent $400 on a new Denny's Nitrous Ready at the same time.
Although I splurged (Not really, just got pissed off with a problem) and spent $400 on a new Denny's Nitrous Ready at the same time.
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