What's a torque converter and does it help?
02-26-2003 | 12:59 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 761
From: Corpus Christi, TX USA
What's a torque converter and does it help?
Lately I have been reading about people getting a torque converter for there cars. I looked on how stuff works and it just kept avoided if it adds power or just helps the car run smoother. What all do they do and what is a good one for my v6?? Will I see a horsepower increase?? I have 3.42's if it matters any cause I read that the gear ratio helps. Any help is appreciated! Thanks! 
02-26-2003 | 04:31 PM
#3
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 412
From: SAY Town
Haz-Matt broken link!
nothingeined, don't feel bad, both the automatic transmission and torque converter are the least understood items in a vehicle. Mostly because we never actually see the insides of a torque converter or automatic transmission. In fact the most complex piece of machinery in a car is the automatic transmission.
With a manul car the transmission is hooked to the engine by the clutch. Whatever RPM you drop the clutch is what RPM the tranny will be forced to catch up to. So if you want to launch at 2,500 RPM you just revv the engine and then let the clutch out.
But on an automatic we don't have a clutch. So the way that an automatic tranny is connected to the engine is by the torque converter. And it works in some aspects like a clutch.
A torque converter with more stall will allow you to rev the engine higher before you launch. With a stock converter is acts like a clutch in that it is preset to engage full lock up at 1,800 RPM or so. If you rev near or past that, especially with a torquey engine you'll start to spin your tires. But with a 2,500 RPM stall converter you can revv much higher while still holding the brakes. So that when you release your engine is spinning at 2,500 and the converter locks up and sends that power straight to the tranny. So basically it allows you to launch at a higher RPM, thus making your run faster.
Modern torque converters can multiply the torque of the engine by two to three times. This effect only happens when the engine is turning much faster than the transmission. So at idle, a manual should lose to an automatic. But the automatic has it's weak points. In that, if the manual decided to rev up to redline and launch there (assuming he's got the traction to make it work) the automatic at best can only rev to about 3,000 or so, and thats with a very high stall race converter.
For all out racing a automatic tranmission needs a Trans-Brake. Which locks first gear, but also allows it to be temporarily dissengaged. So that you can rev up to what ever RPM you want, and then with a flick of a switch first gear is engaged. That way you don't use your brakes at all, and you can launch at redline if you wish. But its very hard on the driveline, so they usually need to be beefed up.
Anyway, a step up from the stock converter would give you a noticeable differance in power felt. Maybe a 2,000 to 2,200 RPM stall converter. TCI has a good list of which one would be right for you and your modifications.
nothingeined, don't feel bad, both the automatic transmission and torque converter are the least understood items in a vehicle. Mostly because we never actually see the insides of a torque converter or automatic transmission. In fact the most complex piece of machinery in a car is the automatic transmission.
With a manul car the transmission is hooked to the engine by the clutch. Whatever RPM you drop the clutch is what RPM the tranny will be forced to catch up to. So if you want to launch at 2,500 RPM you just revv the engine and then let the clutch out.
But on an automatic we don't have a clutch. So the way that an automatic tranny is connected to the engine is by the torque converter. And it works in some aspects like a clutch.
A torque converter with more stall will allow you to rev the engine higher before you launch. With a stock converter is acts like a clutch in that it is preset to engage full lock up at 1,800 RPM or so. If you rev near or past that, especially with a torquey engine you'll start to spin your tires. But with a 2,500 RPM stall converter you can revv much higher while still holding the brakes. So that when you release your engine is spinning at 2,500 and the converter locks up and sends that power straight to the tranny. So basically it allows you to launch at a higher RPM, thus making your run faster.
Modern torque converters can multiply the torque of the engine by two to three times. This effect only happens when the engine is turning much faster than the transmission. So at idle, a manual should lose to an automatic. But the automatic has it's weak points. In that, if the manual decided to rev up to redline and launch there (assuming he's got the traction to make it work) the automatic at best can only rev to about 3,000 or so, and thats with a very high stall race converter.
For all out racing a automatic tranmission needs a Trans-Brake. Which locks first gear, but also allows it to be temporarily dissengaged. So that you can rev up to what ever RPM you want, and then with a flick of a switch first gear is engaged. That way you don't use your brakes at all, and you can launch at redline if you wish. But its very hard on the driveline, so they usually need to be beefed up.
Anyway, a step up from the stock converter would give you a noticeable differance in power felt. Maybe a 2,000 to 2,200 RPM stall converter. TCI has a good list of which one would be right for you and your modifications.
02-26-2003 | 08:11 PM
#4
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 34
From: Athens, GA, USA
the automatic at best can only rev to about 3,000 or so, and thats with a very high stall race converter.
www.converter.cc
R
02-26-2003 | 10:02 PM
#5
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 761
From: Corpus Christi, TX USA
thanks for all the help! bliggida that about summed up everything. i guess i really dont do that cause whenever i try to stall mine at line (automatic) it feels like its gonna die on me. i had it about 1500 and its feels weird. so i just punch it off the line. thanks again!
bliggida that about summed up everything. i guess i really dont do that cause whenever i try to stall mine at line (automatic) it feels like its gonna die on me. i had it about 1500 and its feels weird. so i just punch it off the line. thanks again!
02-26-2003 | 10:31 PM
#6
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 412
From: SAY Town
Originally posted by jenaz28
There are 5000+ RPM stall converters...matter of fact some of the hardcore drag racers (with "street cars" use 5200 RPM converters and such)...www.converter.cc R
There are 5000+ RPM stall converters...matter of fact some of the hardcore drag racers (with "street cars" use 5200 RPM converters and such)...www.converter.cc R
We're not talking about unlimited drag racing here, please keep it limited to the realm of the V6 fourth gen. F-body.
02-27-2003 | 11:18 AM
#7
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,000
From: TX Med Ctr
Originally posted by Bliggida
Haz-Matt broken link!
Haz-Matt broken link!
Second of all, some of that info is kind of, well... not right.
When the converter locks, it does not stall, and you get no torque multiplication. Rated STR only occurs when the transmission is at zero RPM, and the engine is at rated stall. Once the transmission rpm begins to rise to the speed of the engine, STR declines. Since the coupling can't be 100% efficient, you have a lockup clutch which engages so that the engine and transmissions are mechanically linked. This is for greater fuel economy.
Here is the info from the link that I posted, even though it works fine:
Hello to all!
I wanted to post some converter information that I believe will be useful to all. I made sure not to promote any business and my intention is only to inform.
The converter that was used in OE application in most all of your cars is the 245mm (9.5”) torque converter that has become popular in high performance, high stall, and custom converters and for very good reasons. The main reason for this popularity is the many impellers and stators that you can use. The ability to efficiently tailor stall math and STR is priceless. This keeps the guess work out of building, and keeps the grinder and pliers out of the builder’s hands. No cutting or bending = less heat and more efficiency, as well as better, more reliable math. “Efficiency” is where the confusion tends to begin in most the converter threads I read… It’s simple in concept….. The more efficient a fluid coupler (converter) can be produced the more power you will get from the crank to the tires.
Can you gain HP by getting a performance converter?
YES, but this is gained by building a more efficient fluid coupling and is simply the HP that was lost by the excessive (protective) clearance in the OE converter. It’s not a gain at the crank; it’s a gain to the input shaft of the transmission.
Why is the OE converter less efficient then many performance converters?
The manufacture has an obligation to deliver many things in today’s world. Pleasing the driver is one of these, but keeping the car out for the promised 75,000 miles is priority number one. Both these things (drivers comfort and warranty) are greatly enhanced by building the converter to slip when the drive train is stressed, thus saving the motor, transmission and many other parts from being “over used”. The stall is set for comfort as well, and the higher multiplying components are reserved for smaller displacement motors and used to improve the performance off the line. Once the motor has passed well beyond its peak torque, the manufacture gains favor with the EPA at cruising speeds by using lock up theory.
The after market makes many mods that improve the performance of the car….. Gears, tires and converter being among the top, for the improved 60 foot.
The performance converter manufacture has no commitment to keeping the car out for 7 years or 75,000 miles….. No warranty on the drive line, axles or liability for tire wear. All bets are off and the customer is looking for one thing… improved performance.
To gain this, we make a more efficient coupler. By brazing the components we are able to avoid OE flex on the turbine. The brazing strengthens and joins the impeller to avoid loosening of the fins that is guaranteed to cause failure. By brazing, clearance can be set much tighter between impeller and turbine and this can only create a more efficient fluid coupling.
What is STR?
Simply put, it’s the torque you multiply off the line.
Example:
If you produce 200fp of torque off the line, a converter with a STR of 2.1 will give you about 420fp during launch multiplication. (Or 2.1 times the torque input)
The STR is increased using the higher multiplying stator (reactor), and is farther enhanced by added negative impeller angle. This increase is measured (and felt) at launch (50-75ft). Once the converter begins to couple, the stator starts to run in time with the turbine to redirect fluid and the multiplication is reduced to the motors output.
In performance application the lock up feature is often used to make up for the topend efficiency lost by the increase in STR or the higher stall math. The added HP from mods such as nitrous will tax this bond between the friction and apply surface and cause the lock up to slip. The added slip causes the heated friction to glaze and the glazed friction then slips even more.
This is solved (to a degree) in performance application by using a more aggressive friction like Kevlar or high carbon, and machining the taper on the apply surface so you get more surface apply at one time. This makes the lock up firmer, more pronounced and improves the efficiency of the converter coupling at topend.
Any Magic Tricks?
Nope…..
Sound math, experience and a “no short cut” mentality are a good start.
The proper equipment and an extensive variation of parts designed to improve performance at any level is key.
Product loyalty is a good thing.
If you like your "Yank" converter…. Tell your friends so they can get the same satisfaction.
If it’s "PI" that turns your crank (pun intended), then that’s what you should recommend.
Edge has a no pressure policy that seems to work well. We set our product on EBay so you can see what you’re buying. Feedback is invited through the EBay forum and leaves little room for deception. “Custom configured” means something here and that’s very important in customer satisfaction.
While I would like to see the whole world on Edge… The product will sell for what it is. Not for what a salesman will tell you or the deal you get.
This board is only one thing you all have in common. You also share a love for performance and the F Body!
While debate is good, the end result should be a “lesson learned”, or something that inspires. Not fighting among the very people you can learn from.
Andre@Edge
P.S. I wrote this as Andre, on my off time, without the permission or request of my employer.
I use the log on name “Andre@Edge” so there is zero deception.
I would never try to convince anyone that any one converter is the “only” converter to own. I only wanted to inform and say hello………
Hello and best of luck! Regardless of what converter you run, HAVE FUN!
I wanted to post some converter information that I believe will be useful to all. I made sure not to promote any business and my intention is only to inform.
The converter that was used in OE application in most all of your cars is the 245mm (9.5”) torque converter that has become popular in high performance, high stall, and custom converters and for very good reasons. The main reason for this popularity is the many impellers and stators that you can use. The ability to efficiently tailor stall math and STR is priceless. This keeps the guess work out of building, and keeps the grinder and pliers out of the builder’s hands. No cutting or bending = less heat and more efficiency, as well as better, more reliable math. “Efficiency” is where the confusion tends to begin in most the converter threads I read… It’s simple in concept….. The more efficient a fluid coupler (converter) can be produced the more power you will get from the crank to the tires.
Can you gain HP by getting a performance converter?
YES, but this is gained by building a more efficient fluid coupling and is simply the HP that was lost by the excessive (protective) clearance in the OE converter. It’s not a gain at the crank; it’s a gain to the input shaft of the transmission.
Why is the OE converter less efficient then many performance converters?
The manufacture has an obligation to deliver many things in today’s world. Pleasing the driver is one of these, but keeping the car out for the promised 75,000 miles is priority number one. Both these things (drivers comfort and warranty) are greatly enhanced by building the converter to slip when the drive train is stressed, thus saving the motor, transmission and many other parts from being “over used”. The stall is set for comfort as well, and the higher multiplying components are reserved for smaller displacement motors and used to improve the performance off the line. Once the motor has passed well beyond its peak torque, the manufacture gains favor with the EPA at cruising speeds by using lock up theory.
The after market makes many mods that improve the performance of the car….. Gears, tires and converter being among the top, for the improved 60 foot.
The performance converter manufacture has no commitment to keeping the car out for 7 years or 75,000 miles….. No warranty on the drive line, axles or liability for tire wear. All bets are off and the customer is looking for one thing… improved performance.
To gain this, we make a more efficient coupler. By brazing the components we are able to avoid OE flex on the turbine. The brazing strengthens and joins the impeller to avoid loosening of the fins that is guaranteed to cause failure. By brazing, clearance can be set much tighter between impeller and turbine and this can only create a more efficient fluid coupling.
What is STR?
Simply put, it’s the torque you multiply off the line.
Example:
If you produce 200fp of torque off the line, a converter with a STR of 2.1 will give you about 420fp during launch multiplication. (Or 2.1 times the torque input)
The STR is increased using the higher multiplying stator (reactor), and is farther enhanced by added negative impeller angle. This increase is measured (and felt) at launch (50-75ft). Once the converter begins to couple, the stator starts to run in time with the turbine to redirect fluid and the multiplication is reduced to the motors output.
In performance application the lock up feature is often used to make up for the topend efficiency lost by the increase in STR or the higher stall math. The added HP from mods such as nitrous will tax this bond between the friction and apply surface and cause the lock up to slip. The added slip causes the heated friction to glaze and the glazed friction then slips even more.
This is solved (to a degree) in performance application by using a more aggressive friction like Kevlar or high carbon, and machining the taper on the apply surface so you get more surface apply at one time. This makes the lock up firmer, more pronounced and improves the efficiency of the converter coupling at topend.
Any Magic Tricks?
Nope…..
Sound math, experience and a “no short cut” mentality are a good start.
The proper equipment and an extensive variation of parts designed to improve performance at any level is key.
Product loyalty is a good thing.
If you like your "Yank" converter…. Tell your friends so they can get the same satisfaction.
If it’s "PI" that turns your crank (pun intended), then that’s what you should recommend.
Edge has a no pressure policy that seems to work well. We set our product on EBay so you can see what you’re buying. Feedback is invited through the EBay forum and leaves little room for deception. “Custom configured” means something here and that’s very important in customer satisfaction.
While I would like to see the whole world on Edge… The product will sell for what it is. Not for what a salesman will tell you or the deal you get.
This board is only one thing you all have in common. You also share a love for performance and the F Body!
While debate is good, the end result should be a “lesson learned”, or something that inspires. Not fighting among the very people you can learn from.
Andre@Edge
P.S. I wrote this as Andre, on my off time, without the permission or request of my employer.
I use the log on name “Andre@Edge” so there is zero deception.
I would never try to convince anyone that any one converter is the “only” converter to own. I only wanted to inform and say hello………
Hello and best of luck! Regardless of what converter you run, HAVE FUN!
Last edited by HAZ-Matt; 02-27-2003 at 11:28 AM.
02-27-2003 | 04:24 PM
#8
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 717
i got my stall converter for 200 bucks 
2800 stall...and it feels awesome at the LAUNCH..just image your launch with 1000 more rpms behind it than stock!
2800 stall...and it feels awesome at the LAUNCH..just image your launch with 1000 more rpms behind it than stock!
02-27-2003 | 05:05 PM
#9
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 657
From: carbondale IL \ Alton IL (outside St Louie MO)
200 $ 
wow , how did you pull that off?
wow , how did you pull that off?
02-27-2003 | 05:08 PM
#10
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 216
From: St. Louis, MO
Originally posted by Bliggida
Anyway, a step up from the stock converter would give you a noticeable differance in power felt. Maybe a 2,000 to 2,200 RPM stall converter.
Anyway, a step up from the stock converter would give you a noticeable differance in power felt. Maybe a 2,000 to 2,200 RPM stall converter.
02-27-2003 | 06:50 PM
#12
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 412
From: SAY Town
Originally posted by shortdog273
Man, that's way too small. Anything under a 2800 is a waste of money especially for the 2000+cars like nothineined and I have. The factory converters have higher stalls than the previous models. Nothineined, I wouldn't get nothing less than a 2800 stall. 3000-3400 stall is more ideal.
Man, that's way too small. Anything under a 2800 is a waste of money especially for the 2000+cars like nothineined and I have. The factory converters have higher stalls than the previous models. Nothineined, I wouldn't get nothing less than a 2800 stall. 3000-3400 stall is more ideal.
You can get whatever you like, that doesn't mean anything 'uncivillized' or less than what you like personally won't work. For a car with factory equipment and no other plans for modification with regards to serious engine work, 2800 is actually the max I would reccomend.
You can have too much stall ya know?!?
02-27-2003 | 06:54 PM
#13
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 412
From: SAY Town
Originally posted by HAZ-Matt
Broken my ****... it worked fine for me
Second of all, some of that info is kind of, well... not right.
When the converter locks, it does not stall, and you get no torque multiplication. Rated STR only occurs when the transmission is at zero RPM, and the engine is at rated stall. Once the transmission rpm begins to rise to the speed of the engine, STR declines. Since the coupling can't be 100% efficient, you have a lockup clutch which engages so that the engine and transmissions are mechanically linked. This is for greater fuel economy.
Here is the info from the link that I posted, even though it works fine:
If you get an aftermarket torque converter, don' get less than a 2800 stall. If you do you won't be able to tell much of a a difference
Broken my ****... it worked fine for me
Second of all, some of that info is kind of, well... not right.
When the converter locks, it does not stall, and you get no torque multiplication. Rated STR only occurs when the transmission is at zero RPM, and the engine is at rated stall. Once the transmission rpm begins to rise to the speed of the engine, STR declines. Since the coupling can't be 100% efficient, you have a lockup clutch which engages so that the engine and transmissions are mechanically linked. This is for greater fuel economy.
Here is the info from the link that I posted, even though it works fine:
If you get an aftermarket torque converter, don' get less than a 2800 stall. If you do you won't be able to tell much of a a difference
02-27-2003 | 07:12 PM
#14
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 761
From: Corpus Christi, TX USA
what brand do you guys recommend??? ive decided i could probably use one to help me out a little bit. will the device only kick in when im about to launch, or saying like from a roll it will give me an umph?
02-27-2003 | 09:51 PM
#15
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 412
From: SAY Town
TCI or B&M are probably going to be your best choices. Not sure if Summit Racing has a bargain converter, but if you are doing this on a budget that would be the way to go.
You can also try Yank converters. They are also one of the big names in converters.
You can also try Yank converters. They are also one of the big names in converters.